My friend, David Anders on Catholic TV

[youtube=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qibg-m2vUno]EWTN Live – Protestant Theology – Fr. Mitch Pacwa, S.J. with David Anders – 06-23-2010

EWTN | June 24, 2010 | 56 minutes

I got an email from Dave Anders’ wife, Jill, giving me the link to this TV interview of one of my best friends ever. Dave and Jill are really great people!
Dave, Jill and I became good friends while Dave and I were attending seminary at Trinity Evangelical Divinity School. I’ve said to them more than once that I wish we could have lived across the street from each other since, instead of being thousands of miles away. My guess is that if we had stayed in close fellowship we’d probably be on the same page now, theologically. But even if this never happens, I know we’ll always be close friends, even if our conflicting faiths try to keep us apart.
Dave is a history buff, going on to get his Ph.D.. He has a lightning quick, nearly photographic memory and can digest a huge amount of material. Whereas, my memory is probably just average, and I’m slow and methodical, covering much less territory, but with a fine-tooth comb. I chew on stuff, thinking it through, making sure. And history was my minor, not my major. Dave and I come to conclusions much differently.
Having been geographically apart for so many years, I’m only now seeing the reasoning he used to come to his decision to leave evangelicalism and become a Catholic. It’s interesting that we’ve both seen the contradictions in evangelical thought, but we used different tools and methods to end up on these way different pages.
I absolutely know that Dave has a pure heart, and he won’t be offended by this critique. But I’m going to challenge him too. We still have time to work this out. I think at the very least, when he sees ONE happen (Jesus’ heart-cry for us in John 17 — what this site is largely about) outside of the Catholic church, he’ll know, just as Jesus said in John 17: “Then the world will know.”
Much of the world sees the serious problems in today’s evangelicalism (which both Dave and I observed), but it’s also obvious to the world that the Catholic church leaders have a severely reverse-Christian reputation, because… You know. At least the Catholics aren’t pushing pro-reverse-Christian wars like the protestants are.
But it’s also clear that the scriptures I present in my header at the top of this site aren’t being realized in either of these religions, currently. To me, if we’re not doing the greatest two commandments then we don’t have real Christianity, the true church — “by their fruits you will know them.” But apparently, for Dave, the true church always exists as the Catholic church, whether there is good fruit or not.
I believe that real Christianity happened for a time in the early church. Like in Acts, when they were all in one accord and the presence of God was so strong that those outside were literally afraid. And there was great respect for the church. “Then the world will know” already happened then, but it was soon falling apart, even in what we read in Jesus’ letters to the churches in Revelation.
Like Dave, I’ve found the early church fathers’ writings to be interesting, but I think we’re looking for different things. In my studies, I’ve been looking for evidence of where God was actively showing up, where there was the presence of God, not just mere mental ascent. Paul said: “don’t be drunk with wine but be filled with the Holy Spirit.” In one of these interviews, Dave talks about not feeling anything and that’s okay. But I believe we’re supposed to be filled with the Spirit, and that this will be a tangible thing.
So unlike Dave, I’m not impressed with Augustine, or the so many church fathers who I think really didn’t really understand and experience real Christianity the way it is supposed to be. Dave thinks Augustine is significant, while I think he didn’t get it. While we both agree that Luther and Calvin didn’t get it. Neither understood Paul.
I still believe in restoration theology: that the church did at one time have it together, and has at times since, while Dave now believes that basically, “the church” never really lost it, because of apostolic succession. “The Church” has always been the church.
We both agree that sola scriptura (the Bible alone) is not a biblical concept; though, I don’t believe that our traditions can be correct if they disagree with the Bible. I believe the Bible can be totally trusted.
Apparently(Dave, correct me if I’m wrong), Dave now believes the Catholic leaders decide what true doctrine is — that tradition is king.
I don’t believe in apostolic succession, or in Popes, or in “Fathers,” or in the continuation of the priesthood into the new covenant. The veil has been rent. Jesus is our only priest. Now we go directly to Him.
As does David, I discount sola scriptura (scripture only), but not because I elevate tradition. Rather, I believe that God gives the people the ability to determine what is right, because He’s given us the Holy Spirit to lead us into all truth. John said in 1 John 2:26, 27:

These things I have written to you concerning those who would lead you astray. As for you, the anointing which you received from him remains in you, and you don’t need for anyone to teach you. But as his anointing teaches you concerning all things, and is true, and is no lie, and even as it taught you, you will remain in him.

I’m very surprised that Dave is saying hardly anything about the Holy Spirit. But for the Bible writers, the Holy Spirit is a huge factor — God, Himself giving us the ability to understand all things without someone dressed in a robe telling us what to do.
I also believe that true leaders will teach the people how to be led by the Holy Spirit. True leaders will teach the people how to abide in Christ to the degree that we will hear His voice and follow Him.
To me, the Bible and the Holy Spirit should be the emphasis. To Catholics, apparently the church leaders’ doctrines are the emphasis. To evangelicals, what pastors and K-LOVE says seems to be the emphasis; though, some claim sola scriptura. But they clearly have a canon within the Canon, emphasizing their favorite texts while totally ignoring those that disagree with their once-saved, always saved (or “it’s hard to lose one’s salvation) doctrines.
Paul said “follow me as I follow Christ.” Catholic leaders just say “follow us, regardless.” And Dave said he struggled with the bad popes, but then decided that God’s plan was carried out through even them. Huh? Dave? I wonder how many billions of people are in hell because of the Catholic church right now, based upon what the Bible really says about who goes to heaven. People are blindly trusting in biblically disqualified leaders instead of making sure they are abiding in Christ, themselves. This deception is huge!
And for those who have read my writings, you know that I don’t think the evangelicals are doing much better. Many are doing even worse in their once-saved-always-saved (or similar) deception.
Dave considers the sacraments to be much more important than I do. And he believes that the bread and wine in the Eucharist/communion isn’t just representational. I’m open to the idea that the sacraments should mean more than they do to evangelicals. And I don’t know what to think regarding “the real presence” and the other theories about the bread and the wine being Christ’s body and blood or not. Perhaps the Holy Spirit will lead us into what is fully true regarding this, but I still think this is minor when compared to these other things.
I don’t see evidence for baptizing infants in the Bible or in the Didache (an early church fathers’ writing that I think is significant). The person getting baptized believing is mentioned in both cases. I don’t think converts should put it off though, like I did for a few years.
I was surprised to hear that Dave no longer believes in a born-again conversion when one is old enough to commit. Apparently, he believes that Catholic baptism + nothing = salvation. This is close to what the Lutherans still teach; though, it would be a Lutheran baptism. This is a huge deception — very dangerous, especially when there are so many clear texts that say what is required to go to heaven that don’t mention baptism at all.
The Bible teaches personal responsibility, now that we have the Holy Spirit inside of us. The Catholic Church teaches putting full trust in the priests and sacraments. I don’t see it. This is yuck to the max! The Devil must like and support this just as he pushes and enjoys once saved, always saved.
“By their fruits you will know them” indicates that the Catholic Church and the evangelicals aren’t yet fully enough them. What the Bible says the church is supposed to be isn’t happening in either camp. The Devil wants us to sit on our laurels and act like we’ve arrived, when we clearly haven’t.
When ONE happens, “then the world will know.”
Let us be ONE!!!

——-

An earlier interview from: EWTN

20. Program Name: Former Presbyterian
smallspeaker.gif  (241 bytes) Listen Now
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Series Name: The Journey Home
Host: Marcus Grodi with Dr. David Anders
Date Produced: 2/8/2010
Description: Dr. Anders shares with us his experience as a Presbyterian seminarian studying the Church Fathers especially Augustine and what happened to Faith Alone, the Bible Alone among others, on his Journey Home.

David wrote How John Calvin Made me a Catholic, in which he says this in a comment:

I concluded – on the basis of hard, cold, unemotional exegesis – that Luther profoundly misread Paul. From this, I reexamined ecclesiology, and ultimately authority, and concluded that the Catholics had the better arguments.

I have given a broader account of my conversion here:
http://www.chnetwork.org/newsletters/may10.pdf

I have also given an interview that goes into more of the doctrinal basis for my conversion.
It is available online [the Marcus Grodi with Dr. David Anders interview posted above – editor]:
http://www.ewtn.com/vondemand/audio/seriessearchprog.asp?seriesID=-6892289

Also, in response to my historical claims about Calvin and Bolsec.
I deliberately left out most of the footnoting I would have included in an academic article.
If you would like more documentation, please examine my dissertation.
It is available at: http://disexpress.umi.com/dxweb#search

Prophets from the ranks of shepherds: John Calvin and the challenge of popular religion (1532–1555)
by Anders, Albert David Ph.D., The University of Iowa, 2002, 712 pages.

Related:
My Ph.D.-genius-friend, John Calvin expert: “In all my reading of Calvin, I don’t recall him ever apologizing for a mistake or admitting an error.” | According to Paul, can John Calvin be in heaven?
All of my The Catholic Deception posts
Who-Goes-To-Heaven Scriptures — Narrow is the Way

21 thoughts on “My friend, David Anders on Catholic TV

      1. Ignatius

        Judgement won’t simply be thumbs up and thumbs down, but a judgement of your works. Every time the bible speaks about judgement it never once even mentions faith, but every single time about what you have done. Obviously without faith one will never enter.
        Two simple passages as examples:
        1Cor 3:13 each man’s work will become manifest; for the Day will disclose it, because it will be revealed with fire, and the fire will test what sort of work each one has done.
        14 If the work which any man has built on the foundation survives, he will receive a reward.
        15 If any man’s work is burned up, he will suffer loss, though he himself will be saved, but only as through fire.
        16 Do you not know that you are God’s temple and that God’s Spirit dwells in you?
        17 If any one destroys God’s temple, God will destroy him. For God’s temple is holy, and that temple you are.
        Judgement based on what one has done:
        verse 14 imediate entrance into heaven
        verse 15 suffering loss and saved in the same way (greek houtos) as through fire. The same way as what? The man’s works also went through the fire. This is a delayed reward and what Catholics believe is purgatory.
        Verse 17 Going to Hell based on tearing down God’s Temple
        There you have all three – heaven, purgatory, hell
        The metaphors and greek are unmistakeable unless one’s own doctrines are forced into the text.
        2Cr 5:8 We are of good courage, and we would rather be away from the body and at home with the Lord.
        9 So whether we are at home or away, we make it our aim to please him.
        10 For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, so that each one may receive good or evil, according to what he has done in the body.
        Why are we attempting to please Christ? Because we must appear before His judgement seat and we will receive recompense for both good and bad. Not precisely for good and bad faith, but for good and bad deeds
        So when you receive your recompense for bad will you just snicker at Christ’s judgement since you made it? You had better hope that recompense for the bad is not hell, but being chastized by Christ will not be taking place in heaven either because heaven is pure and holy and people will not be receiving anything bad.

  1. Rick Reyes

    Hi jeff,
    Like Dr. Anders you too is gifted with good intellect which means not all humans are. The only difference with you and Dr. Anders is because he seems to agree that the Church is purely Divine and will remain Divine no matter who you are, may it be a genius or mentally retarded. The Church is not about you or Dr. Anders and all other who are with gifted intellect. This is about the “Church”. As one of the early fathers said, “knowledge is not a pre-requisite for salvation”. The reason that Christ wanted to have the “Church” built is because not all humans are created equal in understanding, which means we are all welcome. Humanity is given to administer the Church because Christ will no longer with us and humanity also dies, that is why we need succession.
    If you insist in your own intellect then another one will argue with you, and so on. Like thousand of other denominations, who is the truth?

  2. Rick Reyes

    Hi Jeff,
    There’s nothing wrong on what you wrote because no one can judge but God. Catholics believe that obedience to the Word is important and that what we must do, “to obey” and follow the teachings of Jesus Christ. I do not object if you say you have the Holy Spirit as some protestants and other denominations always claimed. Catholics believe that by doing what had been done since the foundation of the Church is also the right thing to do and the closest to fulfill obedience. The “fullness of faith and truth” is not only accepting Christ to be your saviour but to adhere to the Word. In your essay, it is easy to read what you wrote because you have selected scriptures according to your understanding and belief. You have however never explained the important scriptures that supports the claim of the Church.

    1. Jeff Fenske

      Rick,
      Actually, I was raised Lutheran, and in doing my own Bible reading, I realized that I wasn’t taught the truth. So I was at that point open to whatever the Bible really said.
      I have studied every passage in the New Testament twice, specifically noting what they said about salvation.
      I also had a very important dream that helped me understand that what Jesus said about who goes to heaven in the Sermon on the Mount (specifically regarding lust) can be fully trusted; though, Luther basically through the Sermon on the Mount out as not realistic for humans.
      David has told me that my ideas are similar to Catholic ideas in that Catholic doctrine has mortal and venial sins. You’re probably familiar with this concept, but many are not.

      http://www.saintaquinas.com/mortal_sin.html

      The Distinction between two types of sin

      All sin is an offense against God and a rejection of his perfect love and justice. Yet, Jesus makes a distinction between two types of sins. We call the most serious and grave sins, mortal sins. Mortal sins destroy the grace of God in the heart of the sinner. By their very grave nature, a mortal sin cuts our relationship off from God and turns man away from his creator. St. Paul’s letter to the Hebrews tell us that “if we sin willfully after having the knowledge of the truth, there is now left no sacrifice for sins” (Hebrews 10:26).

      The second type of sin, venial sin, that of less grave matter, does not cut us off from Christ. However, venial sin does weaken grace in the soul and damages our relationship with God. A person who frequently indulges in venial sin is very likely to collapse into mortal sin if they persist in their evil ways.

      Partly what I have done in Who-Goes-To-Heaven Scriptures — Narrow is the Way | Who are the Children of God? is to demonstrate Biblically what really are the mortal sins that cut us off from saving grace until we don’t repent. [The Bible also talks about how those who are led by the Spirit are the children of God. The Catholic Church generally puts way too much emphasis on the sacraments and not enough on personal responsibility to be right with God and our neighbors.]
      It is possible that there are Catholic writings that are similar to what I’ve done, but I haven’t seen them. If you know of any, I’m interested. I don’t want to create walls if there are none. But so far, I see what Catholicism teaches as being far from what is Biblical. In fact, I don’t see Catholics in general to be very interested in what the Bible really says.
      Dave Anders has made a big change in this direction. He now states that Catholic Church tradition and Catholic leadership interprets the Bible. Even though, many of the leaders may be terribly immoral, committing many mortal sins, Jesus started the CC and said He will build His church, and that church is the CC, so whatever they say goes — even though Jesus said we would know them by their fruit — and the fruit of the Catholic church in general pretty much stinks, to be honest. And so does the fruit coming from most evangelical churches.
      I think Dave and I are at a temporary bypass, because I believe the Bible can be fully trusted and that the Holy Spirit is our interpreter. I don’t hear Dave talking about being led by the Holy Spirit anymore. He’s so in love with the ‘Church,’ regardless of how filthy it is, and how unbiblical.
      I think once real Christianity happens, then Dave will know that this is true. That’s my hope, and that is my focus.
      jeff

    2. Jeff Fenske

      There is one other factor that I haven’t mentioned as to why, I think, Dave and I differ in our conclusions — so far.
      Dave is a church history buff to the max (Ph.D in it), seems to consider the writings of the early church fathers as what real Christianity is really supposed to be.
      I’ve also found the early church fathers’ writings interesting, because they were writing in the centuries that followed the writing of the New Testament. So one would think that they had Christianity that was closest to what the apostles had.
      To a certain extent this is true. I wrote a 30-page paper in seminary on healing in the early church (~100-400 A.D.), and there were many miraculous healings that took place during this period.
      However, I think real Christianity was already disappearing before 100 A.D.. It’s pretty clear when reading Jesus’ messages to the 7 churches in Revelation 2 and 3 that many of the churches had already significantly fallen away from what is real Christianity in which most of the people were going to heaven. I find the church of Sardis really interesting. Only a few in that’Christian’ community hadn’t soiled their clothes, so their names won’t be removed from the Book of Life.
      Rev. 3:

      1 “And to the angel of the assembly in Sardis write: “He who has the seven Spirits of God, and the seven stars says these things: “I know your works, that you have a reputation of being alive, but you are dead. 2 Wake up, and keep the things that remain, which you were about to throw away, for I have found no works of yours perfected before my God. 3 Remember therefore how you have received and heard. Keep it, and repent. If therefore you won’t watch, I will come as a thief, and you won’t know what hour I will come upon you. 4 Nevertheless you have a few names in Sardis that did not defile their garments. They will walk with me in white, for they are worthy. 5 He who overcomes will be arrayed in white garments, and I will in no way blot his name out of the book of life, and I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels.

      I hold to what some call restoration theology: the idea that for example, the churches in Acts mostly were walking in real Christianity for a short season, but it didn’t take long for many of the churches to significantly fall away. I think doctrines of demons to a great extent replaced the pure doctrines that the New Testament writers taught. And this was happening big-time in the early church fathers’ writings.
      So Dave is apparently putting a lot of faith in the sacraments because this is what became so important in the second or third century and beyond. I see very little emphasis on the sacraments in the New Testament. and the Holy Spirit has never led me to focus on them at all; though, He’s told me many things that are pertinent to how real Christianity can happen today. See: “Let Us Be ONE” (A Prophecy — 2001-02, 2008)
      I don’t believe any of the sacraments are a “get out of jail free” card. I’ve written in “Who-Goes-To-Heaven…” what the Bible really does say about how we can avoid Hell to spend eternity in heaven.
      I think it’s important to study church history. I minored in church history during the fairly short time I was in seminary, but I majored in theology: what does the Bible say? And though seminary doesn’t encourage this at all (sadly and sickly), I also believe it’s important to be led by the Holy Spirit in our studies — to really pay attention to what He is saying in His still-small voice, in dreams and visions, and in what He has and is telling other people who seek God.
      And when the Holy Spirit leads us we’ll understand the written word of God better. That’s a major reason (there are other key reasons that I share elsewhere in this blog) why I believe my Who-Goes-To-Heaven Scriptures — Narrow is the Way essay makes total logical sense, and it can’t be disproven; though, hardly anyone teaches it — so far. I think it’s very possible that this teaching will become mainstream in the near future, once the Third Great Awakening happens in our midst, largely because we’re finally getting our doctrine to be similar to what the apostles actually believed.
      Bad doctrine makes bad churches. And that is what has happened during most of church history. The Devil has had his way.
      Great doctrine will bring about great Christians and great churches! Then we’ll be ready to face with confidence the dire straits that face us in what very well be the last days period.
      Freedom!
      Power to the peaceful!
      jeff

  3. Rick Reyes

    Jeff,
    I am not sure if I get you. You said that the Church of today is not the same as the early Church and that it is now may be influenced by a devil. This will make you believe then that the early Church is the “true church”. If you do not agree with the early fathers who were there to witness the church continue the tradition that Jesus founded how can you convince me to agree with you with your belief when you are trying to get the information from the book these early fathers prepared for you.
    How do you know also that you have the Holy Spirit guiding you? How can you prove that to us? You are a sinner Jeff, and you need to reconcile for that sin and you know very well how we are taught to confess our sins. The Holy Spirit guides those who are righteous, are you? I am ashamed to have the Holy Spirit in me if I keep on sinning. For we are to be perfect as the Father is perfect. It may be impossible for us but everything to God is possible.
    I disagree with you on the difference of the early Church and of today. Have you been to the Mass? What is in the the Mass that is not in the Scriptures? Are we worshiping the devil? Jeff, it seems that you are lost. You are trying to circumvent the passages that were already defined by those who were there even when the Authors of the Gospels wrote it. There is no way you can define or interpret better than them.
    Like I said, you are also human, just like those writers and disciples. Yes we have the Bible telling us how the Holy Spirit guiding them. We don’t see your name there. If you really think that your interpretations are right, why don’t you send them to the Vatican for answers? I am sure they will give you an answer.

    1. Jeff Fenske

      Rick,
      I’m not sure where what you’re coming from, but I’ll try to answer.
      First, I go by what the Bible says we are to be, which I wrote in Who-Goes-To-Heaven Scriptures — Narrow is the Way. Have you carefully read that? If we live outside of these parameters we’re like the prodigal son, in danger of going to Hell. But God will take us back with open arms if we repent. He’ll even run! But we determine how close we are to Him. He always wants to be close to us.
      If we live within the acceptable parameters, then I would be surprised if we would hear voices other than the Holy Spirit’s. All I know is that I don’t hear conflicting voices anymore. But I pray in my prayer language a lot too, which helps get rid of demons. You may be interested in this: There Should Only Be One Voice; though, I’m not Vatican approved.
      I don’t approve of the Vatican either. These are my The Catholic Deception posts.
      Throughout the New Testament, we are taught to be led by the Holy Spirit ourselves, and also to test the leaders whether they are from God. Paul said: “follow me as I follow the Lord.” And he said the Bereans were more noble because they not only received what Paul said, but they checked out in the Bible what he said to make sure it was true.
      We should all know the Bible ourselves. The priesthood was done away with when the veil was rent, when Jesus died. Now we can all communicate with God directly. Anyone who calls himself a priest is in clear violation of the scripture, and I think, shouldn’t be trusted.
      We’re all to have a personal relationship with God ourselves. “My sheep know my voice and they follow Me.” “Those who are led by the Spirit are the sons of God.” The Greatest Commandment should be our greatest goal.
      The Catholic Church is largely a system that gives millions false hope, and this is also true with Lutheranism, etc..
      I don’t think that I understand what you are saying regarding the early church. I’m saying that the early church during the apostles’ days were mostly understanding and living out real Christianity, but many of the churches had already fallen into great error by the time that Jesus spoke to John in Revelation 2 and 3. This was long before even the first of the early church fathers’ writings that we have today.
      jeff

  4. Rick Reyes

    Jeff,
    The Catholic Church does not give me false hope because I understand what the Church is all about. Like I said before, I have no problem you telling that we should connect directly to Jesus Christ, however, we Catholics want more and that is to follow and obey every single instruction that Jesus taught. You may not want to adhere to the Scriptures that said so because you insist on your own belief of direct communication with God. The Scriptures is clear and the Gospels are important that is why we believe on those who followed the tradition since the beginning. Jeff, these are the people whom Jesus spoke with directly.
    Besides, what else do we have to understand about “who goes to heaven” when it is clearly defined by the Church already? Your insistence on these matter proves that you want your opinion to be followed, and may I ask why are you so obsessed with it? What is your motive? To make your own Church? So you can have more money than the Vatican? The subject you are trying to prove is so insignificant in our salvation.

    1. Jeff Fenske

      Rick,
      What I see from you appears to be almost blind adherence to a group that calls themselves the Church, but is actually a mind-controlled center that mixes truth with doctrines of demons.
      They control the left, let’s say, and the evangelicals control the right with their mixture of truth with other false doctrines. Satan controls both the Republocrats and the Demopublicans in the political arena, and he’s hijacked both sides of Christianity too.
      What I’m trying to do is to help real Christianity happen again, especially according to the scriptures that are listed in my header at the top of this site.
      in reality, the Catholic church isn’t even close to the church in Acts. It’s one big arm of the disinfo. The apostles would probably gag if they walked into a Catholic church today — or they would just walk right out — knowing it is so far from what Christianity should be. The CC is responsible for sending more people to hell than any other religious institution, having deceived them into thinking they were going to heaven. The evangelicals aren’t doing so shabby in that regard, now, either. Here is just one list of doctrines of demons that the CC has instituted and their start dates (of which some could be suspect — but it shows the general real history of what went down when): LIST OF CATHOLIC HERESIES and HUMAN TRADITIONS.
      As for accusing me of trying to get real Christianity going to make a buck, saying I want to make more money than the Vatican: why do you defend an institution that is steeped with the love of money and accuse me who has never asked for one cent from anybody to help me with what I’m doing?
      From what spirit do you speak? You sound like the accuser of the brethren.
      We must get back to the basics of what the Bible really says and see the Matrix for what it really is.
      Jeff

      1. rick

        jeff,
        I cant believe you are referring to the listed heresies to be true. They are not and are deeply rooted in the scriptures. These are the type of readings evangelicals are poisoned. This is why also converts like Dr. Anders can prove to you that they are not heresies but based on Scriptures. Think about it jeff, Dr. Anders knows better because he had been there but woke up to the truth to prove you wrong.

        1. Jeff Fenske

          Rick,
          Actually, these heresies and human traditions are almost totally not based on the Scriptures at all (many come from paganism), but to Dave, now, this doesn’t seem to matter, because he’s now teaching that the Scriptures aren’t the final authority. The Catholic leaders are. What they say goes, even if they obviously lack Christian character in their lives. [Dave, if you read this and consider that I’m misrepresenting your perspective, please say so.]
          This is totally unbiblical, but this is what they Catholic ‘church’ has been teaching for centuries. This is what the Devil wants people to do: park their brain and don’t listen to the warnings and direction of the Holy Spirit to lead us into all truth.
          The CC has a long heritage of keeping the people in the dark while they decide what is right. The Devil doesn’t want us to think for ourselves, to make sure what we’re being taught is true or not.
          Again, consider the Bereans who were more noble because they made sure….
          I hesitate to say this, took a couple of days to think about this to make sure, but I think it’s important to see what is going on, now that Dave has gone public and is actually deceiving people.
          Dave is a wonderful person. I will always have good memories of him no matter what happens. I’m hoping we can get back onto the same page once the Third Great Awakening happens. Then he’ll know.
          I’d like to share something I’ve observed with intellectuals, people with amazingly high IQs. especially those who have incredible, almost photographic memories.
          Dave is such a person. Dave has read thousands of heavy theology books and can probably tell you much of what they contain, still today, years later. He can lecture for hours, giving detailed information about church history, etc.. This allows him and people like him to easily get a Ph.D.. I say easily, not because it wasn’t hard work doing all of that research, but because he can so easily recall what he read Dave probably aced everything. His doctoral thesis apparently set a new standard.
          But this doesn’t make Dave or people like him great theologians. But these are the kind of personalities who mostly become professors teaching at the seminaries — because they can remember and recall information. They can churn out the theological textbooks that the seminaries require.
          But people who have extreme gifts are usually weak in other areas. I know a lot of guys like these. They usually have a hard time quieting and relaxing themselves enough to be able to hear God, as well as to be able to carefully think things through. They get a massive amount of work done, which is truly amazing — something I could never do — but they often don’t think things through deeply enough and carefully enough to make sure they’re right.
          I’m quite different from people like this. I’m slow and methodical. I look at issues from many perspectives. I’m amazed by what they can do, while at the same time, I’ve been often disappointed when I can see the errors they’re making but they choose to ignore my gifting. They don’t value what people like myself has to say, thinking they can do just fine on their own, “Thank you.”
          Most of these types hardly have any of the “discernment of spirits” gift. They say the glass as mostly full when I can see that it’s almost empty. Because I can see the dark side. I can help protect them, actually.
          Dave and I went to school together almost 20 years ago, and we’ve been separated by thousands of miles since, with two exceptions, when I visited. And we talked over the phone and by email some too. But it was when we were together on a daily basis is when we rocked. We balanced each other out.
          I’ve said more than once to him and Jill that I would have really liked to live across the street from each other throughout this time. I think we would probably still be on the same page if this were the case.
          This is a really doggy dog world. Deceptions are everywhere, and yes, Christians can be influenced directly by demons. It takes keen discernment to be able to wade through the matrix, determining what is right. People who don’t have strong discernment of spirits gifts should realize that they’re sitting ducks if they don’t relate closely to those who have this gift and who keep it sharp by staying clean.
          Another important gift to utilize to help stay demon free is praying in tongues. There is a reason this gift is emphasized in the New Testament. There is a reason why Paul spoke in tongues a lot. Those who think they don’t need this gift or don’t have to use it much can be more easily directly demonized. And we’re talking doctrines of demons here.
          We can’t go by how we feel about things. Demons can make darkness feel like light. People will pray (James-3 curse) that we believe what they believe, and if we’re vulnerable, the demon they put on us sticks, and then whatever the demon is pushing feels right.
          Most ‘Christians’ have demons in them and they don’t even know it, especially when they don’t have the gift of discernment of spirits, and ignore those who do, who could help them. These are called “familiar” spirits, because the spirits become a part of their own personality.
          Many children just unquestioningly believe what they’ve been told to believe, spiritually, even when older because their parents (or someone else) prayed (James-3 cursed) that they would believe their faith, whether it be Catholic, Lutheran, Mormon, etc..
          When people have doctrines-of-demons spirits in them they’re emotionally drawn to just go and stay in this one direction, and reject anything that disagrees. This is largely true with the evangelical’s once-saved-always-saved doctrine too. Certain people pray (James-3 curse) that they accept this doctrine. Tithing is also a big one, for it’s love-of-money driven.
          In order to get out of the matrix, it’s often crucial to know that we’re in a spiritual battle with real demons.
          Demons want us to relinquish our personal responsibility to make sure that what we believe is right. Satan wants us to be easy prey.
          But the wise will make sure that what they’ve been taught really is true.
          A person can appear smart because they can quote volumes of material and talk for hours. But that doesn’t mean at all that they’re a careful discerner of truth, especially when they may be determining doctrine based too much on church history alone.
          When people diminish the Bible’s importance and don’t even talk about the role of the Holy Spirit to lead us into all truth, watch out!
          This is what Dave is doing, and this is dangerous. I never would have imagined years ago that he’d be doing this today.
          I think the Catholic Church is like a cult. They’ve largely replaced the greatest two commandments with rites and ceremonies. The Lutheran church has done some of this too. While the evangelicals are mostly trusting in once-saved-always-saved.
          But what does the Bible really say, and what is the Holy Spirit telling us?
          I’ll leave it at that
          Jeff Fenske

          1. rick

            jeff,
            It will be hard for me to explain to you why there are no heresies in the Catholic Church because the word “heresy” was first used by the Church to identify those who invoked beliefs other than what the Church teaches. There are many references about what you thought the Church teaches other than Scriptures. These references are from Scriptures which supports the alleged “heresies” listed. All you have to do is to look at them with open heart and mind. They are real and true.
            I truly believe also that it is not the Holy Spirit that is guiding you but a demon. You are attacking the Church and you know what that means. We will pray for you Jeff. Praying that someday you will wake up to he truth. Goodbye and may the Lord Jesus Christ guides you.

    1. Marilyn,
      Have you decided to follow Jesus anywhere He takes you? Have you made Jesus lord of your life, or are you doing your own thing, trusting in an institution?

      Rom. 8:14 “For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, these are children of God.”

      Mt. 7:21 “Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter into the Kingdom of Heaven; but he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven.”

      jeff

  5. Marilyn

    Did you eventually discover that the bible that you hold so highly actually came from the Catholic church that you hate so much? Did you finally discover that the books that made it to the bible that you upload so highly – the bible as you know it today were actually decided upon by the Catholic bishops….in the 4th century?
    Though collections of sacred writings, varying in extent, existed in the various local Churches of Christendom, the canon or official list of Scripture was only compiled by the Church toward the end of the fourth century—at Hippo in 393, Carthage in 397, whence it was sent to Rome for confirmation in 419. The Bible may be called the notebook of the Church, and she has always claimed to be the guardian, exponent, and interpreter of it. . . .

  6. Jeff Fensle says:”The Catholic Church teaches putting full trust in the priests and sacraments. I don’t see it. This is yuck to the max!”
    No Jeff the Catholic Church teaches that only the teachings of the man in the ‘chair of Peter’, Christ’s prime minister and holder of the keys as per Isaiah 22:18-22, together with his bishops in union with him, are worthy of Christians’ trust. It is this church that the Holy Spirit protects from teaching error, not individuals outside Christ’s church as clearly demonstated by the thousands of protestant denominations.
    I have had to report some priests to my local Bishop (overseer) for teaching false doctrine during my own life of 72 years.
    The truth of the sacraments is upheld by Christ’s one true church but individual Catholic priests can and sometimes do, teach false doctrine.

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