From: News with Views
THE IMPOTENT CHURCH AND ROMANS 13
By Chuck Baldwin
March 10, 2011
NewsWithViews.com
There are over 300,000 evangelical Christian churches in America. That equates to tens of millions of professing Christians and hundreds of thousands of Christian ministers. Think of the church sanctuaries, educational facilities, schools, camps, radio broadcasts, television programs, colleges, seminaries, preschools, youth retreats, etc., that grace America. In some communities there is a church building on just about every corner. In spite of this massive exposure to the modern Church, however, the nation has been left virtually unaffected, uninfluenced, and unimpressed.
In fact, one could make the argument that while America’s churches have experienced unprecedented growth in membership and wealth during the last half-century, the country as a whole has simultaneously nose-dived into corruption, deception, socialism, and even an increasing federal despotism. How can this be? Where is the influence for God, for good, and for liberty from these hundreds of thousands of churches and multiplied millions of professing Christians–not to mention billions of dollars raised and spent by these religious institutions?
For all intents and purposes, the modern American Church is pathetically impotent! Not only has the American Church failed to influence the nation to any significant degree, it has proven itself to be ineffective in influencing its own membership!
Professing Christians today can be some of the most hateful, spiteful, mean-spirited, slanderous, and vindictive people on the planet. And I could give personal testimony as to just how treacherous, disloyal, and cowardly these people can be. I can truly understand why so many unsaved people never darken the door of a church. After all I have seen and experienced inside the Church, I don’t blame them.
How did this happen? It wasn’t always like this. In Colonial America, churches were, without a doubt, the most influential, powerful institution in the country. The Great Awakenings of the 18th and 19th centuries were certainly among the most significant events in early American history–literally changing the course of the nation for decades. But not only has there been no “awakening” in the 20th (and now 21st) century, the Church seems to be totally ineffectual–and content to be so.
Entire Article Here
Related:
The Red Gate Prophecy — What If I Open It Just a Little Bit? The believers, not the non-believers, have opened the gate to sin, which is why this country has deteriorated
Evangelicals, Militarism, and Romans 13 (Preston Sprinkle)
Jasper McMillan
It really sickens me when I think of just really impotent American Churches are today. All you hear either at your local church or on television are appeals for money. Various scriptures are used to intimidate Christians into giving far n beyond their tithes yet I hear nothing about the hell being raised outside and sometimes inside the church. Deacons are backbiting each other and the Pastor. The Pastor, usually job scared, tries every week to put together a sermon that will please the congregation while bringing in enough money to pay his salary as well as the light bill…….and pew members with an attitude of piety and who feel as though they are doing God a favor by even showing up on Sunday Morning and dont you dare mention an evening service! Communion is often done once or twice a year and even then, only a handfull of folks even show up. In most American Churches, its difficult to get enough volunteers to do anything! The homosexual agenda has intimidated many so-called Pastors into condoning and even conducting marriage ceremonies between members of the same sex! Laws are being ramroded through the political system that will make it illegal to preach or even say aloud anything that might offend a homosexual within earshot…..
Our preachers often allow any politician into their pulpits to promote whatever the “flavor of the day” is regardless of what the Holy Scriptures say.
America has lost her fear of God and theres a price that must be paid for that!!! Even sadder for America, the salt and the light of this country are being polluted to such a degree that it has now become very diffficult to tell the difference between them and the rest of the world.
For that, the American Church must answer to God!!! America is quite possibly, the most God favored and most God blessed nation that the World has ever seen yet, for all of that favor and blessing, we have thanked God by spitting in his face!!! The clay pot has turned on the potter and now must pay the price!!!
Our worst enemies now own us financially. If Red China or even Saudi were to call in their loans to America today, we could, quite possibly have to hand over the keys to the “house” and become slaves to those who hate us and everything we stand for……….our leaders both in the church and in our governments are guilty for selling us out but worst, we are guilty for allowing it……………………………………….
Jeff Fenske
Well said, Jasper!
We’re a dysfunctional family. Most pastors don’t teach or do the truth anymore. They have lowered the standards to a sickening level, but the people don’t hold them accountable and keep giving them their money.
The people need to stop enabling biblically disqualified pastors, and the pastors that aren’t hearing and obeying need to step down and let those that are lead.
I have no idea why they are so arrogant to think that God will welcome them with open arms when they are leading the people astray.
It certainly is related to the fear of God. If we don’t have the fear of God we don’t even have the beginning of wisdom.
I’ve been saying that for years, and people pooh poohed me. Now I see that Francis Chan is saying this too.
We need the fear of the Lord to have any sense at all!
Thanks for caring and commenting!
Jeff Fenske
narrowway
Well said, and long over due, the situation at best is in rough shape, as the compromises gone to far to long. The consequences that will be reaped may mimic Sardis the non -offencesive ekklesia or the circle term now used to define the Church is sadly fallen into a social club status,vereses the one many may desire as being faith and Spirit led and the pursuit of real truth in a Spirit of love based on knowledge phil1;9.
My hope is many will do so seeing this and knowing full well the out come of 1 Cor 3 in which imaturity and building with non- vital things will fail and lead to state of being barren one day where we won’t have the secound chance to change and explain away intential error . Perhaps we can avoid what may be due.take that stand that counts in the now and latter on.
narrowway
Don_in_Odessa
In my opinion, Mr. Baldwin is spreading a false teaching. The only job the Church was given to do by Jesus, as it relates to the unsaved world, was spread the news of God’s gift of salvation. Not change governments or secular law to conform to Christian teaching. Despite Mr. Baldwins cries that American Government was intended to be led by Bible waving finger pointers, the truth is that America is a secular society Governed by documents that are supposed to insure that no one is forced to partake in Religion of any kind, no matter how passively. Our forefathers did indeed espouse Christian values as do many of us today. But Christian values were never to be a club to force people to live by anyone’s interpretation of God’s law. We opened our arms to the world and invited everyone end. No matter if they had a different religion or none. The condition for immigration was never that one had to follow Christian law no more than Sharia law.
Jeff Fenske
Don,
I don’t understand your response. It’s as if you are responding to another article. Chuck didn’t say anything you’re saying in what I bolded above, which I can’t see anything wrong with.
I also added two links, which I also totally agree with. The Red Gate prophecy makes complete sense to me, and that’s what Chuck is saying here.
Christians are supposed to be salt and light, and most, today, are neither. That’s why we’re going down.
It’s the “Christians,” not the unbelievers who by opening the gate to sin in their own lives have trashed America, and let it go to the dogs. Most Christians are not following Christ.
I would go further and say that most “Christians,” then cannot be Christians; though, Chuck is a Baptist who probably believes in once saved, always saved, which I believe is the key doctrine that has deceived the church into thinking they don’t have to follow Christ to go to heaven.
And therefore they aren’t salt and light — salt being a preservative.
jeff
Don_in_Odessa
Mr Baldwin’s thrust in his teaching on the misinterpretation of Roman’s thirteen, which he and his son have turned into a book in recent years and are all over the internet promoting, is to chastise the ministry of Church leaders for not advocating an active fight against government law as they relate to God’s law. They would return America to what they say, was a previous state of one grand body of Christ represented by the citizens of this country. I believe they themselves are the ones misinterpreting Romans 13. I believe it is not the pulpits job to do as they say and I believe America was built by our fore fathers to express our freedom from an established national religion. Not a slave to their interpretation of God’s law or their version of Christianity. And thus trying to return America to their imagined “previous state” is wrong.
Jeff Fenske
Don,
So you weren’t responding to Chuck’s words I posted in above. You were criticizing Chuck in general.
I still think what Chuck said above is fantastic, and I have never heard him say the things you claim he is saying. Perhaps you could include an example of him advocating what you are claiming, like in what you said here: “Christian values were never to be a club to force people to live by anyone’s interpretation of God’s law.” I have never seen Chuck say anything like that, but if he is, please let me know.
I have heard Chuck and Timothy talk about their Romans 13 book. I’m not comfortable with everything they say, but they are totally right when they say how Romans 13 was used by Hitler to get the people to submit no matter what. What I believe regarding Romans 13 is in the link I posted above.
Where I draw the line with Chuck, from what I’ve heard over the years, is that he is open to the idea that there may come a time when the “Christians” need to overthrow the government through armed conflict. I believe in self-defense, and in America defending itself from military attacks, for sure, but I wonder if the Holy Spirit was actually leading the patriots to fight and kill British soldiers during the American revolution.
Christians are supposed to be led by the Holy Spirit. Dietrich Bonhoeffer apparently felt led to help assassinate Hitler and overthrow the government.
There is possibly coming a time when there will be armed conflicts with our government. I DON’T WANT ANY PART OF THAT. Chuck may.
I believe in the salt and light principle, which he talked about in this post. I don’t believe in power over people, either, except when it really is self-defense.
Because most ‘Christians’ have not been abiding in Christ enough to be salt and light, many of us may be martyrs if we make it through the likely coming attack on the US by Russia and China.
The main thing is to know God personally, and to do what He is telling us to do, which includes maybe doing mission work overseas.
jeff
Don_in_Odessa
Well clearly you are familiar with what I said. Just put into Google the term “Chuck Baldwin Roman’s 13,” there are 29000 hits. Here is one that was re-posted from 2011 recently on a website that I visit: http://chuckbaldwinlive.com/Articles/tabid/109/ID/320/Romans-13-Setting-It-Straight.aspx “For at least the past half-century Christian pastors and churches have been all but neutered. On the whole, they have ignored Christ’s admonition to be the “salt of the earth,” and as a result, have failed to do much of anything to preserve freedom’s Biblical Natural Law principles in this great land. In fact, the average church is so sugary sweet that it is downright sickening!” One does not only need look at his teaching on Romans 13. His entire ministry, if one can call it that, is peppered with Christian political activism. This is not a pastor Mr. Fenske.
I won’t sit here and recite everything he has written about the subject, but my reading tells me this man wants to make God’s law the law of the land. He doesn’t come out and say it a succinct way. But it is the logical conclusion to what he preaches. Mr. Baldwin’s eyes, like all of those of us who profess to be Christians, need to keep the finger pointing and condemnation in the Church and even that needs to be done in a loving way. Which he has already called “sugary sweet that it is downright sickening” There’s enough evil going on within the hallowed halls of what we euphemistically call the body of Christ these days to keep us busy ’till the end of time. Christ left us with one job; Tell the world about His sacrifice for it’s sin. Tell them He paid the price for all of us. Further, in the Scriptures we find that the Holy Spirit does the rest in us and through us. Turning a whole country into his version of Christianity as a matter of codified law is not what Jesus had in mind.
I agree with the salt analogy. Of course the Church needs to be taught and admonished and guided into obedience to God’s law. But, I absolutely refuse to believe that God expects us to make a secular society’s obedience to His law the law of the land. That is the jest of the man’s teachings. Effectively, denying the freedom to choose God’s law over man’s law.
Jeff Fenske
Don,
I’m trying to figure out your position. You can’t support your claims about Chuck with actual statements, because from I understand about Chuck he doesn’t lord it over anyone, nor does he want us to lord it over others, forcing our positions onto them, making them accept the Constitution as the rule of law it’s supposed to be.
It’s possible that you misunderstand Chuck’s positions and intentions, or you do understand them and are slandering him.
The evangelical church in America is mostly sickening, not just to Chuck, but to Jesus too, Who will vomit them out of His mouth, because they are lukewarm, good for nothing spiritually. They watch the filth on TV and on the internet. They think Fox News actually tells them the truth when they said Ron Paul is a kook. So they vote for the Republicans no matter what, even if it’s for the globalist favorite, John McCain who was pro-preemptive war and pro-abortion, pro-NDAA, pro-torture.
And then they voted for Mitt Romney, who also would have supported the globalist goals, and was openly pro-NDAA.
The pastors teach the people they’re going to heaven no matter what, because they said a little prayer. The pastors are happy as long as the tithes keep coming in (from the old covenant law). Most of the pastors will get the stricter judgment the Bible talks about, because they put the people to sleep spiritually, instead of teaching holiness and integrity and standing up for what is right no matter what.
I have a “Chuck Baldwin” category at my ToBeFree site,” which is mostly not about spiritual issues, and often political ones. I have over 100 articles and videos by Chuck. What you’re saying doesn’t ring true to me at all.
Chuck has been saying that the preachers get the people to vote Republican, and then when the Republicans destroy America by not going along with the Constitution the people just accept it and act like nothing is wrong. They’re “sugary sweet.” They have no backbone, nor can they think for themselves. They support all of the reverse-Christian wars and the torture, the police state. They put their children through the naked body scanners. As long as Bush/Cheney were in charge they supported even the banker bailout, Romans 13 — “obey without question.” “Don’t look at what really happened on 9/11.”
But now, “Obama is so bad. Obama is the problem.” No, the ‘Christians’ are the problem.
The average evangelical is so ignorant of what is really going on that they still don’t know they helped destroy America. They don’t want to hear it.
I started figuring out what was really going on in the ’90s, and started an email list, which then became these two blogs. Most of my friends still won’t admit I was right, and most didn’t want anything to do with Ron Paul, whose statement of faith is on this site, by the way.
God does want us to stand up for what is right and to oppose evil, and to expose it. Chuck has been doing that. If you think otherwise, then you’re part of the problem too.
And until you can find Chuck actually saying what you are publicly telling others he says, then you should be more careful.
I have never seen him indicate such a thing as what you are claiming without any support.
jeff
Don_in_Odessa
I read Mr Baldwin different than you do. I read the job of the Church different than he does. I believe he is wrong about Romans 13. I believe he is part of the problem and if you swallow his brand of Christianity as it relates to politics, I believe so are you. Political activism on a Christian platform and chastising pastors for not doing so is wrong, Period.
Having said that I do agree with much of his political position. I am Libertarian leaning myself. Revolution? If they capture the Government on their own and string them up, I will be the guy in the shade of the gallows handing out the lemonade to the party goers. Otherwise I will keep trying to spread the truth of Jesus sacrifice and exercise my vote every chance I get.
Jeff Fenske
Don_in_Odessa,
Either you didn’t read what I wrote in all caps, above, or you are just being argumentative, because I clearly stated that I don’t want anything to do with a violent revolution.
Chuck is one of the only pastors whom I know of pointing out some really key problems among evangelical pastors and evangelicals. In addition to his words in this post, here are a few of the titles of my 108 Chuck Baldwin posts at ToBeFree, which are so right-on. The evangelicals and the evangelical pastors have destroyed America by supporting the Republican Party no matter what.
Chuck Baldwin: What Does John Hagee Really Want? — “These WARMONGERING EVANGELICALS beat the war drums; they encourage the young men from their churches to go off and fight these ‘holy’ wars; they WORK TIRELESSLY TO ELECT PRO-WAR POLITICIANS…. Then, the politicians … send the US military to invade, bomb, and KILL HUNDREDS OF THOUSANDS of people, the vast majority of whom are innocent people. … ANIMOSITY against the United States is GROWING EXPONENTIALLY; in an effort to keep our country at war, our ECONOMY is being overburdened and overtaxed TO THE POINT OF NO RETURN; in the name of the “War on Terror,” America is on the verge of becoming a giant POLICE STATE; we are INCITING CHINA AND RUSSIA INTO NUCLEAR WAR; and America’s military VETERANS are KILLING THEMSELVES more frequently than are enemy bullets”
Chuck Baldwin: Some questions for so many of my pastor and Christian brethren — “Why is it so hard for them to believe that there is a dark side to the US government? Why is it so hard for them to believe in government conspiracies? Why can they not recognize the New World Order that is being constructed before their very eyes? Why do they not see the burgeoning police state that is taking place before their very eyes? Why do they place so much trust and confidence in the Republican Party? How can they be such enthusiastic cheerleaders for perpetual war?”
[The heart of the matter] Pastor Chuck Baldwin: ARE EVANGELICAL CHRISTIANS WARMONGERS? — The disciples of our Lord were called “Christians” first by the Gentiles of Antioch, because of the manner in which the disciples reminded them of Christ’s nature and teachings. Will the word “Christians” now be used as a curse-word to describe those who facilitated the ruination of our country?
Also, for some reason you apparently just blew off what he wrote above about the Great Awakenings, which were spiritual, repentance revivals in which the Holy Spirit showed up big-time because the people got right with God and each other:
The Great Awakenings of the 18th and 19th centuries were certainly among the most significant events in early American history–literally changing the course of the nation for decades. But not only has there been no “awakening” in the 20th (and now 21st) century, the Church seems to be totally ineffectual–and content to be so.
Perhaps you don’t like Chuck because you’re content to keep on sinning, and therefore you can’t be led by the Holy Spirit, by saying this. It doesn’t surprise me that you’re not looking for agreement but disharmony. You can’t be a real, going-to-heaven Christian, based upon what you say about yourself:
The only real difference between us and the sinner is we are forgiven because we accept His sacrifice, not because we have stopped sinning. (source)
…compared with what the Bible really says:
Who-Goes-To-Heaven Scriptures — Narrow is the Way | Who are the Children of God? — “There is therefore now *no condemnation* to those who are IN CHRIST Jesus, who don’t WALK according to the flesh, but ACCORDING TO THE SPIRIT.”
Perhaps you could stop willfully sinning, including getting right with those you’ve hurt, reconciling, so you can lift up holy hands and worship the Lord in Spirit and in Truth. And then we can talk, again.
This is just one more example of how the false doctrine of demons, once-saved-always-saved has destroyed the church and America.
The only way we can unify is if we stop sinning, being right with God and each other, by the power and the leading of the HOLY Spirit.
“Follow peace with all men, and holiness, without which no man shall see the Lord.”
Jeff_in_Anchorage
Don_in_Odessa
“Either you didn’t read what I wrote in all caps, above, or you are just being argumentative, because I clearly stated that I don’t want anything to do with a violent revolution.”
Jeff, I did not accuse you of agreeing and supporting Chuck’s revolution. If it seemed that way to you it was unintentional. Further, I hope and pray someone can get something done without violence. But if it comes to that I will do the best I can to support a transition back to our Constitutional Republic.
I didn’t read the rest of what you wrote as you accused me of being argumentative. I don’t know how my last reply could be anything more than a statement of opinion. It was very simply written with the very intent to avoid an argument. Read it again. They are my views and I will not change them. Perhaps you would be interested in reading some history on my thoughts and discussions over the past couple of years on the net. http://disqus.com/disqus_Oq8Dlnmh6h/ Whether you do or you don’t, I would prefer to end this discussion with you here.
Jeff Fenske
Don,
You say: “Jeff, I did not accuse you…,” and then you write this directly about me after I wrote clearly about what I believe:
“I read Mr Baldwin different than you do. … I believe he is part of the problem and if you swallow his brand of Christianity as it relates to politics, I believe so are you.”
I told you what I believe. I clearly told you what I swallow. And I said it straight. I believe that all liars will go the Lake of Fire, like Jesus said in Rev. 21:8. I accept what the Bible clearly says about who goes to heaven, and try to fully live within the parameters given. We must overcome, unlike what you state front and center on your blog:
Don_in_Odessa
Just a man, as wretched as any other I imagine. But pardoned
by His Grace. May His wisdom overwrite my folly.
God’s wisdom is written, which clearly states that you can’t keep being “as wretched as any other…,” and you can’t keep on willfully sinning and go to heaven:
The only real difference between us and the sinner is we are forgiven because we accept His sacrifice, not because we have stopped sinning. (source)
God’s wisdom has been declared. We must overcome by His grace. You can believe whatever you want, but you will be judged by what has been declared, is true and immoveable.
Now is your chance, and this is your only chance to be led by the Spirit, submitting to His leading — or stay in your folly, which you have also pushed onto others, which means a stricter judgement than if you had said nothing.
We need to be careful, and live in holy fear — under His authority.
I pray that you accept what the New Testament teachers really said, and live accordingly, and jump on the bandwagon of grace to overcome — as Paul did, and as we must also. Paul ran his race to win! Sadly, few pastors and Christians, today, also are. Acts 24:16:
“Herein I also practice always having a conscience void of offense toward God and men.”
Jeff