I POSTED this comment on Facebook a few days ago to concisely clarify what the Bible really says about women’s ministry in the church:
1 Timothy 2:12-14: “But I DON’T PERMIT a woman to teach, nor to exercise authority over a man, but to be in quietness. For [because] ADAM WAS FORMED FIRST [given a specific personality to do his tasks. Eve was then designed by God to complement man with complementary (not the same) characteristics — proven now by science], then Eve. Adam WASN’T DECEIVED, but the WOMAN, BEING DECEIVED, has fallen into disobedience….”
A FRIEND RESPONDED by sending me an article by Jack Hayford, entitled “A Woman’s Place in Christ,” which I’ve decided to critique. I currently believe this doctrine is the third most important in keeping real Christianity and the great awakening revival from happening.
“God resists the proud, but [wants to give] grace to the humble.”
May we be ONE with each other in Christ “that the world will know” – Jesus’ prayer in John 17 — as we do it God’s way!
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In”A Woman’s Place in Christ,” Jack starts out saying the Bible says men and women are the same in every way [emphasis mine throughout]:
The Bible says in Galatians 3:28 that because of what Christ has done, there are no longer any differences among us. “There is neither Jew nor Greek” (no ethnic or national difference), “neither slave nor free” (no economic difference), “neither male nor female” (no gender difference), “for [we] are all one in Christ Jesus.” This verse refers to the equality we have in God.
Here, Paul was actually talking about salvation, when the text is shown in context, that abiding-in-Christ men and women are both children of God, “heirs” according to the promise. Paul did not say women and men no longer have God given personality differences (different and complementary strengths and weaknesses), and therefore no difference in roles. Galatians is about salvation. There “neither male nor female” regarding salvation.
26 For you are all children of God, through faith in Christ Jesus. 27 For as many of you as were baptized into Christ have put on Christ. 28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free man, there is neither male nor female; for you are all one in Christ Jesus. 29 If you are Christ’s, then you are Abraham’s seed and heirs according to promise.
Jack quotes 1 Timothy 2:8-15. The second paragraph is the clearest text on this subject, because Paul gives two reasons why:
I desire therefore that the men pray everywhere, lifting up holy hands, without wrath and doubting; in like manner also, that the women adorn themselves in modest apparel, with propriety and moderation, not with braided hair or gold or pearls or costly clothing, but, which is proper for women professing godliness, with good works.
Let a woman learn in silence with all submission. And I do not permit a woman to teach or to have authority over a man, but to be in silence. For Adam was formed first, then Eve. And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived, fell into transgression. Nevertheless she will be saved in childbearing if they continue in faith, love, and holiness, with self-control.
Jack then says:
First, let’s see what the different verses in this passage do not mean.
That the women adorn themselves in modest apparel (v. 9). “All women should dress as crummy as possible to verify their holiness.”
Why does Jack choose the word “crummy?” Modest apparel is the opposite of “hot” and “sexy,” but should not be “crummy.” Who would interpret Paul’s statement this way?
Jack also says this passage does not mean:
Adam was formed first, then Eve (v. 13).“God likes men more than He does women.”
He’s absolutely correct here. God doesn’t like one sex more than the other because they’re gifted differently.
Jack then completely ignores what this important text really does mean.
“Adam was formed first” means: man was designed with unique giftings to be able to perform specific tasks well. God then made women with giftings that complement man’s giftings. Men and women’s personalities are complementary, not the same, contrary to what society is continually telling us.
Science has now proven this; though, the anti-God media tries to bury these truths:
Jack also doesn’t mention what Paul’s reason #2 does mean. He only says that Paul does not mean that “men are smarter than women,” which is of course not true. The issue is deception, not IQ.
Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived, fell into transgression (v. 14). “Men are smarter than women.”
Eve was deceived by the Devil to the point of sinning, not because she was less intelligent, but because of a strength in her personality that is particularly beneficial in child bearing: empathy. Women are capable of having lots of empathy, and are often more interested in relationships than with facts, compared to men as a whole. But this can be a weakness in ways too, especially in determining Bible doctrine, which requires objectivity. [And please keep in mind that God only calls some men to be overseers (5-fold leaders – Eph. 4:11-16 – & elders). Many men who are leaders today were not even called by God to be leaders.]
Then Jack says:
We can’t analyze every verse, but we will look at a few of the most important ones.
But Jack, there only are four verses to analyze. What kind of an excuse…? The preceding, modest apparel paragraph isn’t directly related. According to Jack, the verses that say why women should not teach or have authority over men in the church (13 & 14) are not important enough to consider. This is a common way that teachers deceive the people — through omission. I see it often, and I hope it’s not on purpose. The establishment media regularly does the same. Jack only mentions what verses 13 and 14 do not say; though, these are the crucial verses to understand this text.
He does address verse 12:
“Let a woman be silent…”
The first thing we have to understand is that, in this passage, Paul is writing to Timothy to instruct him on how to lead a church. He is giving him counsel on how to deal with relationships within the body.
This is absolutely true, and is an important point. Paul is not talking about discussions outside of the assembly, socially.
Then Jack says Paul can’t possibly be saying what he actually said because Priscilla and Phoebe were recognized teachers; though, the Bible does not say they were “teachers,” “overseers” or elders.”
But we cannot divorce the counsel given here from what we find in other parts of Scripture. Elsewhere Paul mentions women who labored with him in the gospel (Philippians 4:3) and others, such as Priscilla and Phoebe, whom Paul recognizes as teachers and deaconesses (see Acts 18:26; Romans 16:1, 3 and 12). Therefore, he can’t be saying that women are to have no input regarding spiritual matters in the church.
Women can be deacons, because it’s not a spiritual-authority-over-a-man role. And in the next chapter in Timothy, Paul clearly states an overseer or elder must be the “husband of one wife” — a man. If women can be overseers according to God’s plan, then Paul simply would have said “married” instead.
Jack’s reasoning here also falls apart:
..let me begin by addressing verses 11-12: “Let a woman learn in silence with all submission. I do not permit a woman to teach or to have authority over a man, but to be in silence.” These verses are commonly interpreted to mean that a woman is permitted to teach only other women. In particular, older women may teach younger ones, as Titus 2:4-5 suggests.
…the older women, likewise, that they be reverent in behavior, not slandering, not given to much wine, teachers of good things-that they admonish the young women to love their husbands, to love their children, to be discreet, chaste, home makers, good, obedient to their own husbands, that the word of God may not be blasphemed.
But if this is true, it is true only in the United States. When a woman goes abroad as a missionary, she is both allowed and expected to teach, and not just to teach other women.
Because we have an unbiblical double standard doesn’t negate what Paul said. Witnessing to men here or anywhere is fine, but being an overseer, teaching in the assembly isn’t biblically allowed in the U.S. or outside of the U.S.. We don’t interpret what Paul said based upon our cultural practice.
Jack also says the misunderstanding is “mainly because the word “silence” is mistranslated in verses 11-12;” though, what Paul means is clear, because he says: “I don’t permit a woman to teach….”
As a longtime charismatic, Jack should know that his reasoning is incorrect here, stating:
If you look at 1 Timothy 2:12 in the context of the whole Bible, you will see that Paul couldn’t be prohibiting women from teaching, or even from teaching men. If he were, why would he, in another epistle, give rules for women to follow when they are prophesying? In 1 Corinthians 11:5, he is referring to prophetic utterances given in the midst of an entire congregation, one that includes men. We know prophecy can come by itself, or it can accompany either preaching or teaching.
Prophesying isn’t teaching. It’s a gift of the Spirit (1 Cor. 12:10) in which the person only says what God says through them. If the person prophesying is adding their own thoughts they’re not prophesying; though, this often passes for prophesy (in the few churches which still allow prophesy).
Jack started this article out saying there is no difference at all between women and men. Now he acknowledges:
God did give husbands authority over their wives. … The redemptive process requires that the husband take leadership, and the wife submit (see Ephesians 5:22-24).
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I must say that I’m really disappointed in the way Jack handled this important, 1 Timothy 2 passage that I’ve always viewed as definitive regarding women’s ministry — because Paul gave the two reasons why, which Jack didn’t address.
I’ve always appreciated Jack standing up for the spiritual gifts on Television. His worship song “Majesty” is extraordinary, and he’s always come across as a kind man. But this teaching is dangerously misleading. It seems that people so greatly want to hear what they want to hear that they accept what pastors and the world is telling them without checking the word of God to make sure what they’re being taught is true — which the Bible prophesied:
“For The TIME WILL COME when THEY WILL NOT LISTEN to the sound doctrine, but, having itching ears, will heap up for themselves TEACHERS AFTER THEIR OWN LUSTS; and will TURN AWAY THEIR EARS FROM THE TRUTH, and turn aside to FABLES” (2 Tim. 4:3-4)
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SAFEGUARD Suggestion to Minimize False Teaching — Allow Comments
One of the first things I did upon reading Jack’s article was to scroll down and see if there were comments. As usual, there are none. Some ministers do allow comments, but then erase those they disagree with. The establishment media doesn’t like comments too.
I always allow comments, whether they disagree or not, unless there is profanity or serious ill will — or if they are off topic.
We should not be afraid of the truth which will set us free from demonic bondage. The demons will run amuck if we buck God’s order in how he designed men and women. “Rebellion is as the sin of witchcraft.”
Submitting to God’s ways is for our own good — so we can be ONE with each other in Him “that the world will know!” God’s glory will be that great when ONE happens — Jesus’ prayer for us in John 17!
God’s guardrails are for our own good — that we might have LIFE!
God’s commandments are there for our protection, not to confine us. We ignore them to our own peril. February 16, 2014
May we be ONE : )
Debra
You wrote:
“Prophesying isn’t teaching. It’s a gift of the Spirit (1 Cor. 12:10) in which the person only says what God says through them. ”
Except that in Ephesians we know that the offices are apostle prophet pastor evangelist and teacher. If a woman has the capacity, through the gift of the spirit to prophesy, then she has the capacity to teach. The point was that she was to subject herself (note, that this is her action, in faith, not to be subjugated, but to willingly submit) to her own husband.
Jeff Fenske
I agree: “prophesying isn’t teaching.” Women should be allowed to prophesy in the church.
Being a prophet is completely different than just having the gift of prophesy.
Jeff Fenske
Debra,
There weren’t any 5-fold ministers or elders listed in the New Testament, and Paul said elders must be the ‘husband’ of one wife. Many are trying to crowbar modern day feminism into the church, and make many false claims, twisting the written word of God in order to make this happen in the church. And many pastors have succumbed to the pressure instead of teaching what Paul clearly said — to please women instead of God. The resulting spiritual dead churches then please no one, as false doctrines like once-saved-always-saved (OSAS) and “Christian” Zionism leads the church away from actually doing Jesus’ greatest two commandments.
Those men who are called by God are supposed to keep the ship running steady, led by the Holy Spirit. We’re supposed to be ‘ONE’ with each other in Christ “that the world will know (Jesus in John 17)!” Men are supposed to hold us to the Biblical standard. And when the people are holy, they’ll hear only the voice of the Holy Spirit, instead of being confused misled by evil spirits, as is common among “Christians” today.
In 1 Timothy 2, Paul is telling us what the Holy Spirit led him to say regarding what happened in the garden. The New Testament interprets the old. For us to come to a different conclusion, that Eve wasn’t really deceived is to reject Paul’s Holy Spirit led teaching.
The other reason Paul gives for women to not exercise authority over men (in the church he’s talking about here) is that Adam was formed first, then Eve. Eve was to be a help meet for Adam, having complementary giftings.
The world has been conditioning girls and women for decades through TalmudVision (TV), education, etc. that women are the same as men. Women can do everything as well as men. Hollywood portrays fathers as wimps and mothers as the wise, strong ones. Many people have grown up laughing with the laugh track as men are mocked in the sitcoms, and don’t even realize they’re being programmed by an anti-God and anti-family, evil agenda that permeates Hollywood.
The result is very few are now really happy, because families are upside down, as are churches. If women don’t lead outright in churches, they’ll often lead through their husband-pastors or by the pressure they put on the pastors.
Most churches don’t even have prophets, because true prophets have the gift to discern the Jezebels. Jezebels hate them, and are often successful in running them out. They’re skilled at James-3 cursing.
Many church leaders have married someone God didn’t lead them to marry, and in order to keep the peace, they submit to their controlling wives, and the church is upside down spiritually. They can even pressure their husbands to teach false doctrine, like once-saved-always-saved. I’ve seen it happen.
You say: “Adam was deluded by Eve,” which isn’t true. The Bible says: “Adam WASN’T DECEIVED, but the WOMAN, BEING DECEIVED, has fallen into disobedience….”
1 Timothy 2:12-14: “But I DON’T PERMIT a woman to teach, nor to exercise authority over a man, but to be in quietness. For [because] ADAM WAS FORMED FIRST [given a specific personality to do his tasks. Eve was then designed by God to complement man with complementary (not the same) characteristics — proven now by science], then Eve. Adam WASN’T DECEIVED, but the WOMAN, BEING DECEIVED, has fallen into disobedience….”
A woman recently told me that many women have had abortions and feel guilty about it (perhaps because they haven’t fully repented and fully submitted to God), and they want to feel okay, so they really like the once-saved-always-saved doctrine that says they’re okay no matter what.
God perfectly made women to deeply care emotionally for their families. They want everything to be okay even when it is not. They want to think that a dead relative is in heaven when they know deep down that he or she is probably not. But they’ll try to convince themselves still….
Guys are problem solvers, and are usually more objective as to whether things really are okay, and if they’re not okay, guys will try to fix the problems, so things then really are right. Guys are more likely to live in reality. “Adam wasn’t deceived, but the woman, being deceived….”
If we put women in charge of the church, the fear of the Lord, the beginning of wisdom goes out the window, and the Holy Spirit is grieved as the church is full of sin, instead of everyone being ‘ONE’ with each other in Christ “that the world will know!”
Paul’s words in 1 Timothy 2 are so clear that the clever and open rejecting of what he says is rebellion, which the Bible calls the sin of witchcraft.
Women usurping authority over men in the church is one of the major reasons we have false doctrines instead of the clear word of God that keeps people free of demons through life in the Son.
Instead of women trying to take over, they should help the men who are supposed to lead lead. Instead of praying against them (what I call James-3 cursing), they should pray for them, so these men will be strong spiritually, right with God and all people, Biblically qualified to lead.
Paul said he was always right with God and men (Acts 24:16). An overseer must be blameless, Paul also said.
What we need is reconciliation, instead of rebellion. We need holiness, so we’ll all have clean consciences and God can lead.
Historically, we can see that since women have been bucking men, instead of helping men grow tall in the Lord, churches have dried up spiritually.
We need holiness to happen now. We can’t wait. The time seems very short. I’ve been following this for over 20 years now, and cover it in my other site. America is in big trouble, and once the USA goes chaos will probably ensue. If we get EMPd and nuked (which we’re being set up for, and many have had visions and dreams about this), 90% of people will die during the year without electricity. Russia and China are preparing to take US out, and sadly, when it happens, we pretty much will deserve it, based upon how we’ve rejected God, and what we’ve done to others in Jesus’ name.
We need to live in reality, and jump back into God, together! We need to find that holy place in God, to rest in Him, hearing only His voice, no longer any familiar spirits who deceive many.
Men whom God chooses should be in charge, who are right with God and people, and qualified to lead.
Real Christianity needs to happen now. It’s now clear that Trump is not going to save us, and may make things much worse.
Ephesians 4:11-16 needs to be the standard taught again, and we need 5-fold ministers to help make it happen, as they follow Christ themselves.
11 He gave some to be apostles; and some, PROPHETS; and some, evangelists; and some, shepherds and teachers; 12 for the PERFECTING of the saints, to the work of serving, to the building up of the body of Christ; 13 UNTIL WE ALL ATTAIN to the UNITY of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, to a FULL GROWN man, to THE MEASURE OF THE STATURE OF THE FULLNESS OF CHRIST; 14 that we may no longer be children, tossed back and forth and carried about with every wind of doctrine [OSAS and “It’s hard to lose one’s salvation. We don’t have to obey], by the trickery of men, in craftiness, after the wiles of error; 15 but speaking truth in love, we may GROW UP IN ALL THINGS INTO HIM, who is the head, Christ; 16 from whom all the body, being fitted and knit together through that which every joint supplies, according to the working in measure of each individual part, makes the body increase to the building up of itself in LOVE.
Only those whom God has called to lead can help make this happen, when supported by women who recognize their gifting in this way.
We need to do it God’s way or it’s not going to happen, and many will go through the dark days ahead alone and without the power and direction of Jesus Christ Who wants to lead us and empower us through this tough time coming.
We need to be ‘ONE,’ and not settle for this bogus, phony church that reeks!
I got this nine years ago:
‘Let Us Be ONE’ Prophecy Continues 10/8/08: “It’s TOO LATE to REVERSE what’s been done for MY MEN have been REJECTED … Now is the Time to OVERCOME and GET RIGHT With ALL … FREEeeeeeeeeeeeee———DOM at last … Your HEART will SWELL with LOVE and it will be EASY to REMAIN In Me when others are On The BOAT With You”
Sincerely,
Jeff