See at my personal blog:
One of my pastor friends died on Saturday —
and I’m not sure where he now is
The Day that Tithing Ended — To Now Be Led By the Holy Spirit
Russell Earl Kelly, Ph.D.: Tithing is Not a Christian Doctrine
Many Pastors Still Teach Old Covenant, Pre-Pentecost Tithing—Not Spirit-Led Giving
Tithing or the Carriage Driver?
David Bercot CD teaching: What The Early Christians Believed About Tithing and Fasting? “You might be surprised to know…”
All of my Tithing or Spirit-led posts
18 thoughts on “Teaching tithing keeps the little (and the big) children from coming to Jesus where they can have life!”
I’ve followed your website for some time, and I’m very unsettled about my own salvation and the confusing testimonies of prophets. I was particularly unsettled, to the point of complete breakdown, when I encountered Bill Wiese’s book 23 Minutes in Hell and Mary K. Baxter’s Divine Revelations of Hell. Your prophetic experiences are also unsettling for me because you seem to contradict yourself with the “prophets” you endorse and the conflicting messages comingled on your website. Take your site’s prominent usage of Howard Pittman’s vision of the 1/20th ratio in your “Who goes to Heaven” discussion. I had the opportunity of speaking to Rev Pittman personally on several occasions, asking him specific questions about SPECIFIC things a believer should be doing. I asked him specifically about tithing, and he provided a ringing endorsement of God’s blessings through tithing, even telling me about an acquantance of his in Oregan, a weathly trucking owner named Woody Clark who became a Christian, then a very wealthy Christian specifically by employing the principle of tithing.
Additionally, I researched Mary K. Baxter’s beliefs on tithing, and according to her book, God showed her the people in hell, both old and young, who were there because they didn’t tithe. Others of this prophetic or visionary genre agree, not tithing will get you sent TO HELL. Who do I believe, Jeff? Should I believe the other things you say you hear from God, when you endorse tithe teachers and yet denounce tithing?
Jeff, I’m not convinced the tithe is required, but then I stumble across these GROSS oversights in your judgement. If these people who you freely quote are correct, you, will experience the agonizing pain of hell with people cursing you for leading them to neglect the tithe.
You claim to know the truth, and that God actually speaks to you. So, I really need to know because I fear I am currently lost—ARE YOU HEARING FROM GOD? If so, why are you so entangled with tithe teachers?
I see that you already asked most of this before, and I answered extensively. The dialogue is here. I would still go by what I said there. I am convinced that tithing is one of the doctrines keeping the Third Great Awakening from happening, and the main one is still the almost universally taught false salvation doctrine. People are taught to follow the old covenant law instead of learning how to be led by the Holy Spirit to determine in our own hearts what and where to give, or to not give.
Most pastors are doing more harm than good, teaching false doctrine about who goes to heaven, etc.. God doesn’t want His children to fund false teachers who push doctrines of demons.
I say ‘push’ because most don’t just teach tithing, they pray that the people tithe to them. And since they’re praying something unbiblical, God doesn’t answer those prayers, demons do. So they’re James-3 cursing the people who attend ‘their’ church so they can get a guaranteed income no matter if they follow God or not.
And that’s why so many people feel guilty when thinking about not tithing. Because the tithing pushers, who probably have the love of money root of all evil in them (or they’d admit the truth more readily, put guilt trips on the people.
Also, you said:
I could have mis-spoken about Mary K. Baxter. I thought it was her who made the statement about tithing (on a TV show or in her book, etc….) I will see if I can track it down.
Did you ever track this down? I have yet to see what she said regarding this, and I would like to.
In scanning what you and I said there, I don’t see you saying what you say here about Pittman.
When preachers tell testimonies about how people tithed and then were blessed, that’s because that’s all they have. It’s been totally disproved in Scripture, which I show in what I already wrote in those other comments. Pro-tithe preachers won’t listen to the testimonies which would say just the opposite and then some because that doesn’t support their love-of-money and old covenant doctrine.
There are probably numerous people who broke free from this mandatory 10% deception and now can even hear God’s voice and are greatly blessed financially.
Preachers who still push tithing which by now most know they can’t prove it biblically or by what the Holy Spirit is saying, they should have great fear, for they are leading many astray and teachers get a stricter judgment.
It’s hard for pastors to admit they’re wrong about something that appears to bring in the bacon; though, it’s destroyed many churches so they no longer have life. And in so doing, they have destroyed the US too. The Red Gate Prophecy — What If I Open It Just a Little Bit?
And they’ll often pray against (James-3 curse) those who teach otherwise, who they think are a threat to ‘their’ ministry and their lifestyle. This alone disqualifies them from going to heaven, which is the end of those who hate people, which I show in Who-Goes-To-Heaven Scriptures — Narrow is the Way.
Those who get these doctrines right can help bring in the Third Great Awakening, and hopefully then, many of those still teaching false doctrines will see the light.
The nature of my question is contradictory associations on your part–reinforcing your position with unqualified supporting statements for teachers like Rev Pittman and others. How could you place so much credence on a tithe-teacher’s visions? Your conflicting associations cause me to ask “Who is hearing from God?” My soul is really at stake here, and so is yours. Don’t get defensive–I really need to know why you can claim to hear from God and still wrap yourself up with people who are doctrinally in error? You place so much faith in Rev Pittman’s vision that you have a segment of your site that is referenced REPEATEDLY (“Who goes to heaven”…less than 2%, etc….) Jeff, are you REALLY hearing from God? If so, why are you making such errors in judgement? You are being scrutinized…you had better answer.
I already answered this in great detail. There isn’t much more I can say. And you still haven’t even shown what Mary Kathryn Baxter actually said about tithing.
And by the way, I hardly even mention Mary K.. I put together a post of videos of her testimony and never even posted it, but may someday.
And Howard Pittman’s experience isn’t essential to my Who-Goes-To-Heaven… article at all. My essay stands strong all by itself, because it’s clear Bible. But Pittman’s experience does give us a ballpark figure that seems to be close to what we would think the percentage of people who are going to heaven really would be based upon what the Bible really says.
It doesn’t matter what Howard Pittman personally believes and teaches. His experience is what it is. He actually was at the gates of heaven and was told the 2.5% figure, which could be even lower now.
I don’t understand how you can be so confused and make these accusations that aren’t founded. You’re not making sense. Are you praying in tongues enough? Are you keeping yourself pure? And are you forgiving everyone from your whole heart?
These things will help you be demon free so you’ll only hear one voice, and there won’t be confusion.
Pray for those who curse you.
There Should Only Be One Voice
Let’s pray: lead us not into temptation, but fill us with wine—the milk of iniquity far from us, leaving it behind, where it belongs, in the garbage. Throw it out, never to see it again. If you don’t it will create havoc. You’ll feel it in your heart, giving you life, but yukky. It’s a substitute for the real thing. Learn to distinguish what is right from what is wrong. Learn the ways of God, so you can minister full of pride no more. Then life will come.
Few find it; many let go way too soon. It takes time to grow up. Be My people. Set apart. A new wine that tastes good to all who watch. Independent no longer, but listening to Me as you pray. Feel My love give you life. And be not afraid. Rest in Me, knowing what to do, because you watched and prayed, learning to hear My voice teach you about little things as you pray. I want to tell you so much, but you are not listening. Few do. There are so many yukky things inside giving contrary orders, confusing My bride.
There should only be one voice, that should lead you into all truth. The others are from another source, and they confuse: “get rid of the Holy Ghost; don’t listen to that voice.” They remain inside, taunting, teaching iniquity, causing confusion, because My body is weak, giving into temptation.
Learn to rest in Me. There is no other. No one can give life. It’s all death. All these other voices have evil intent, but they sound good. They are deceptive. Few follow and listen to the One that remains once holiness happens from deep inside. This is My goal for you, to become clean deep within, where it counts. Then everything you say will be according to My will.
Your website endorses “Wellspring Ministries”, and Wellspring’s ministry partner’s states the following:
“Don’t be deceived by the demonic doctrine regarding your finances and regarding the conditions for God’s prosperity. God set the ten percent tithe standard in the Old Testament, and there is a curse for failing to honor it.”
Are you sure you can endorse them when they are “James 3 cursing”? You can’t have it both ways–either they are cursing or they aren’t. Either you are facilitating their cursing or you aren’t.
I appreciate you thoroughly checking out my site. I really do. This is to be commended!
I link to many groups on this site and ToBeFree, and this does not mean that I fully endorse everything they do.
I applaud Wellspring for their counseling and teaching on forgiving. I was counseled by a Wellspring trained counselor. We went through maybe 20 sessions, praying forgiving prayers and then listening to what God says after the prayers. I typed into my computer everything I heard, and it was amazingly profound.
That’s why I link to them. However, at the same time, I say I have yet to meet a person who forgives everyone from the whole heart all of the time. And that includes them too. They haven’t arrived. And I actually attended their church for awhile. They’re definitely stuck on some things that are holding them back. And I’m not going to talk about these things online. I did mention one thing; though, I didn’t say what church it was, and after that discussion, I realized the pastor and I would never be able to go anywhere together.
I’m not talking about Art. Art is a guy that I think he and I could do well together if we were stuck on a desert island for awhile. But since that isn’t going to happen, I don’t see him and myself getting on the same page until something else happens first.
That something else is I think the Third Great Awakening, which could start at Abbott Loop, if we can get our doctrine together, which, after that, I think the revival will follow.
This site is my think tank. I use to try to push my ideas on leaders, trying to get them to change. But I realize that that isn’t right. So I give the leaders space, only to present my ideas when they seem interested.
Notice that I don’t recommend that anyone attend church so and so. I especially don’t know of a church in Anchorage that is a safe place to attend. And God, for the most part, isn’t attending either. No church has even a reputation for being alive, which Sardis (Rev. 3) had, and yet only a few were right enough with God to not have their names removed from the Book of Life. And which ‘church’ teaches this today?
But they will. Where I see hope is in those who really do believe (just don’t say) that the Bible really is God’s word and can be trusted.
There is no doubt that my Who-Goes-To-Heaven Scriptures article is theologically sound. It’s possible that a main reason why many won’t accept it enough to preach it is because they don’t fully trust the Bible, and are instead in love with man’s traditions.
There are certain people at Abbott Loop who really do want to know the truth, and once we get on the same page the sky is the limit. And I’ll be talking about it on this site.
Now, I can’t specifically address your Wellspring James-3 cursing thing. It wouldn’t be right. I will just say that I have found James-3 cursing to be the norm for those who push tithing and the old covenant (Wellspring is into the Hebrew roots movement too).
When people are ready for real Christianity there is a humble spirit that no longer wishes evil on those they consider their enemies. I see a softening at Abbott Loop. Abbott Loop is the only church I actually have a category for. I think they could lead the world, but only when it becomes ‘we.’
We need to be ONE body with all of the members doing their part, not dissing anyone, and apologizing to those who have been. That’s what Asbury was all about: getting right with those who have been hurt.
There needs to be a major healing, no longer acting like there is nothing wrong.
ONE can happen, but God won’t force it. But God can’t wait for a group to finally get it, so the whole world will know (John 17).
Art Mathias is a pioneer in the forgiveness arena. So I recommend that people learn from his ministry regarding praying these forgiving prayers, which are awesome. And that’s all I’m recommending, right? I never say on this site that Art has arrived.
Also, Art apparently got at least some of his ideas from Henry Wright, and I’m concerned that Henry is being given enough credit. I could be wrong, but if this is true, com’on Art. It’s time.
Henry Wright was also on Sid Roth’s “It’s Supernatural.” Audio and video archives are on his site.
I think I should share this: what I say in The Low-Cut Top Epidemic is what happened at Art’s church. That’s when I left, realizing there is just no hope for real Christianity to happen there.
For those of you who are thinking of going through the forgiving counseling, which really is awesome:
If you’re a woman; though, they may say otherwise, the counseling gets pretty deep, and some really intimate stuff will probably get discussed.
I think it’s important to be really careful to not counsel with a guy who may think things he shouldn’t. So in general, it’s probably best to be counseled by a woman, especially if the guy is close to your relational type.
And perhaps it would be better for a guy to counsel with a guy. I’m not as sure about that.
Art downplays this, saying that it’s often good for a woman to be counseled by a guy, who can be a positive daddy figure. But I think they’re treading on dangerous ground. It really is amazing as to what information comes out.
The counseling can be expensive too, but I really do highly recommend it.
We need to get free and stay free!
My Wellspring link is under ‘Links’ on the right side of this page.
Mike Bickle supports tithing…man, everyone you approve of is “James 3 cursing”. Are you beginning to see a pattern Jeff? You play both sides against the middle, then when someone calls you on it, you seem to ignore accountability. You can’t play this game Jeff. Either you are hearing from God, or you are making this stuff up. Either way, you will hear from God.
Jeff, the reason I’m really frustrated with you, is you’re acting like a cult leader–sort of spiritualizing when you get pinned into a corner. Are you the real deal, or just a guy trying to get attention?
Check this out: http://onecanhappen.com/2009/09/27/the-perfect-storm-by-john-paul-jackson-wstk-itv-awe-tv
That’s when I saw Vineyard die, when they adopted tithing as the standard, and Mike was a part of it, but I have no idea as to what his stand is on it.
There are certain things holding the Vineyard and IHOP back. And I addressed some of these with IHOP very directly on this site. Have you seen this? Have you looked at the 60+ IHOP posts in this site before making this judgment, especially the recent ones in the categories pull-down menu?
I feel prompted to apologize for venting my frustrations. I respect what you said above, and I’m hungry, really hungry for the Living God. It’s like I’m in a house of mirrors, and so many confident voices are calling to me and accusing each other; and none can seem to direct me to a genuine, verifiable connection with God. I see your purpose for the website much clearer. As a lost seeker, its a bit confusing to stumble into a think-tank, when I’m looking for the place to lay my life down.
Hey, man. You’ve shown a lot of restraint in your replies to me. Thanks much. If you would, say a prayer for me and my family to receive what you have. I’ll keep trying to hear God…I’m not giving up until He blesses me!!
Thanks for pressing for the truth.
We need to build the place, the community where we can lay our lives down.
And that you’re already doing.
Apologizing for things small and large is what will bring in The Third Great Awakening — which is what happened at Asbury, 1970 — but it didn’t stick because of extrabiblical doctrine that I imagine is even worse today.
What you just did is what IHOP never said the people should do — which I find quite strange.
Church leaders who don’t get right with the people they hurt aren’t going to call for others to get right (and I’m not referring to Wes. I still think he’s a gem!).
We need leaders who are truly Biblically qualified. I still need to put together an article on what are the Biblical qualifications for leadership. Being ‘blameless’ (according to Paul in 1 Timothy and Titus) at least means that they fit into the who-goes-to-heaven Biblical qualifications.
Thanks for your comments and determination to get it right!
Jeff : )
Galatians 3:13 Christ redeemed us from the curse of the law by becoming a curse for us—for it is written, “Cursed is everyone who is hanged on a tree”—
Galatians 3:14 -so that in Christ Jesus the blessing of Abraham might come to the Gentiles, so that we might receive the promised Spirit through faith.
Galatians 2:16 -yet we know that a person is not justified by works of the law but through faith in Jesus Christ, so we also have believed in Christ Jesus, in order to be justified by faith in Christ and not by works of the law, because by works of the law no one will be justified.
Colossians 2:14 -having canceled out the certificate of debt consisting of decrees against us, which was hostile to us; and He has taken it out of the way, having nailed it to the cross.
It was the 7 Columbian youths who went to hell and saw non-tithers, not Mary K.
Mary K Baxter spoke about Tithing during her trip to heaven.
Are you sure? If so, what did she say and where did she say that?
Otherwise, you may be thinking of Choo Thomas.
Too bad much of Christendom have no understanding of Jesus words on the cross paid in full or on Galatians 3:13 Christ has redeemed us from the curse of the law or
Ephesians 2:8 For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God.
That is so pathetic how many bible illiterates do not understand what took place after Jesus said Paid in full and to be a preacher enforcing tithing on the poor. The Old Covenant tithe was closer to 22 to 30 percent when you add the Temple Tax, which was what the widow’s mite was for.
What about all the other laws in Leviticus? Obviously most have not read all of them and preachers certainly don’t demand redeemed Christians keep all of those laws in Leviticus.
James 2:10 said all those laws had to be kept in unison and to break one voided blessing on the others. If anyone besides Jesus could keep the whole of the law we wouldn’t have needed Jesus to come and do it for us and then give us his righteousness by imputation. Think Christians and wake the heck up.
Dear legalist and Grace Robbers, in Matthew 23:23 Jesus placed tithing below mercy, justice and faith, so what does that tell you, considering the fact Jesus was a Jew speaking to Jews before he died to fulfill the law. He did not praise them for their tithe payments but rebuked them for their pride in themselves and their fakery.
Let me clarify, I support my church and believe in financial support of the church. The Bible said a worker is worthy of their pay but it did not say how much to give after Jesus fulfilled the law and said Paid in full, as in “it is finished” we can give according to 2 Corinthians 9:7 as we purpose or decide and cheerfully with no pressure. The church needs a better way to fund raise than put a curse of fear over Christians Christ redeemed from the curse. Many of us have had enough of u grace robbers.