How the previous post, "What the Lord’s Prayer really says about FORGIVING…," came about

I thought I’d share how the previous post with the long title came about: What the Lord’s Prayer really says about FORGIVING. Jesus made it clear right after “Amen”: “IF YOU DON’T forgive…” vs. Luther’s Catechism: “God forgives WITHOUT CONDITION,” even “REVENGE!!!”
Recently, I was talking with a friend of mine, who also has a strong Lutheran background, about the who-really-goes-to-heaven topic. And I brought up the Lord’s Prayer. I was surprised to discover that she didn’t know that Jesus clarified the forgive us our trespasses as we forgive… line right after the Amen — so that we would all know.
So I thought maybe I should write a post about this, because perhaps there are many who have memorized the Lord’s Prayer but haven’t gleaned from the source material (Matthew) that Jesus kept right on going after the Amen: “For if you forgive…,” to make sure we understand what He means by “forgive us our trespasses as we forgive those who sin against us” — that He really meant business. This is no trivial matter.
As I wrote the post, I thought: I’ll just check Luther’s Small Catechism to see if the part after the Amen is in there. I thought: probably not, which turned out to be correct. And I just now looked it up in Wikipedia [Does anyone know if Wikipedia is derived from wicked or wicca?] to make sure the the isn’t supposed to be capitalized in the Lord’s Prayer. Wikipedia outlines each phrase from the prayer while also not including the two verses after the Amen that are key to understanding the forgiving concept in the prayer.
So I found out for sure that the Small Catechism stopped with the Amen, with Luther actually calling this phrase The Conclusion. But I vaguely remembered Luther’s Large Catechism (not having read it in probably 35 years), and wondered if Martin Luther mentioned The Clarification (I’ll call it, verses 14 and 15, the two verses right after the Amen).
I discovered that he has a whole section explaining what he calls The Fifth Petition (“forgive us our trespasses as we forgive…”), and I include this in its entirety in the post. Reading it carefully, I was amazed to find that not only does Luther spin verses 14 and 15 into something other than what Jesus said, but he even included the revenge concept, which he seems to be so fond of, and attempts to justify it: in that we have much cause for doing it in our poor miserable lives; and because we’re already sealed and forgiven without condition anyway.
So I’m now sitting here, for the first time realizing that as a youth, I was formally taught from a book that professed that revenge is okay and that Jesus didn’t really mean that we must forgive others in order to go to heaven.
[Brainwashing; mind-control comes to mind: like how I see FOX News and so-called conservative talk-radio spinning evil as being good, and good as being evil. I document this deception with many different examples at ToBeFree.]
No wonder so many of us still need major deprogramming for us to become ONE, which is supposed to be normal for Christians, according to Jesus (John 17).
Notice, I include myself. The Bible is so amazingly clear if one reads it afresh, without bias, and with the Holy Spirit’s help. But the programming was so powerful! We were Lutherans, after all. We were taught to follow Luther without question — a man who didn’t really understand what real Christianity is.
Which is why many still respond to the question, are you a Christian? this way: “I’m Lutheran,” or “I’m Catholic.” We drank the Kool Aid as we were programmed to do.
Thank God I saw the light, decades ago, while reading the Bible on my own — though I’m convinced that somebody must have been praying for me, as the Holy Spirit helped me start to break free from the matrix.
But I still need more light to fully think and walk as a follower of Christ, Himself — Holy Spirit led — always walking in the love of Christ, manifested…!
May we be holy and walk free — breaking out of the traditional shackles, emerging as sons and daughters — unencumbered with disinformation — walking fully in truth and in God, having read the Bible again, to make sure — wishing each other well, having confessed our sins one to another, right with each other so we can be healed!!!!!!!
I can see us breaking free of the fog and into the light — on the mountain top where we can see clearly for miles and miles!!!
God bless you all!
May we be ONE in Christ — together — free — always!!!
Jeff : )

What the Lord’s Prayer really says about FORGIVING. Jesus made it clear right after “Amen”: “IF YOU DON’T forgive…” VS. Luther’s Catechism: “God forgives WITHOUT CONDITION,” forgiving even “REVENGE”!!!

Everyone who is familiar with the Lord’s Prayer should know that forgiving others is a salvation issue, for Jesus expanded verse 12 in verses 14 and 15 (right after the ‘Amen’).

But many of us only memorized 9b-13. In effect, we were only taught soundbites. And that’s how the great deception has been pulled off. Many don’t even know that verses 14 and 15 exist!

We must be holy — experientially — not just ‘legally’ (a theological term that is currently being used to deceive many).

The Bible teaches: we are only legally, in-God’s-sight holy if we’re actually living holy — right with God and people — enabled and empowered, given GRACE by the Holy Spirit to do so.

According to the Bible, we must forgive. We have no excuses. Forgiving others is a big deal!

May we be ONE in Him!



<< Matthew 6:9-15 >>
King James Bible

9 After this manner therefore pray ye:

Our Father which art in heaven, Hallowed be thy name.

10 Thy kingdom come, Thy will be done in earth, as it is in heaven.

11 Give us this day our daily bread.

12 And forgive us our debts, as we forgive our debtors.

13 And lead us not into temptation, but deliver us from evil:

For thine is the kingdom, and the power, and the glory, for ever. Amen.

14 For if ye forgive men their trespasses, your heavenly Father will also forgive you:

15 But if ye forgive not men their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses.

<< Matthew 6:9-15 >>
World English Bible

Pray like this:

‘Our Father in heaven, may your name be kept holy.

Let your Kingdom come. Let your will be done, as in heaven, so on earth.

Give us today our daily bread.

Forgive us our debts, as we also forgive our debtors.

Bring us not into temptation, but deliver us from the evil one.

For yours is the Kingdom, the power, and the glory forever. Amen.’

For if you forgive men their trespasses, your heavenly Father will also forgive you. But if you don’t forgive men their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses.

Okay, that’s pretty clear, right? But verses 14 and 15 weren’t included in what I had to memorize in the materials I was taught from in Lutheran school and in confirmation class. We were taught our sins are forgiven, period. And that’s what Luther taught in his Large Catechism.
This is how Martin Luther spins Jesus’ words to mean something He didn’t say.
From: Martin Luther’s Large Catechism, translated by Bente and Dau by Martin Luther, not copyrighted.

The Fifth Petition.

And forgive us our trespasses, as we forgive those who trespass against us.

This part now relates to our poor miserable life, which, although we have and believe the Word of God, and do and submit to His will, and are supported by His gifts and blessings is nevertheless not without sin. For we still stumble daily and transgress because we live in the world among men who do us much harm and give us cause for impatience, anger, revenge [James-3 cursing? – ed.], etc. Besides, we have Satan at our back, who sets upon us on every side, and fights (as we have heard) against all the foregoing petitions, so that it is not possible always to stand firm in such a persistent conflict.

Martin Luther believed that we could not overcome serious sins like persistent anger and revenge [Luther actually stated that he intentionally cursed people daily], though the Bible in many places teaches that we must overcome [see: Who-Goes-To-Heaven Scriptures — Narrow is the Way]. The Holy Spirit enables and empowers us, gives us the grace to overcome temptations, to the degree that Paul taught: “No temptation has taken you except what is common to man. God is faithful, who will not allow you to be tempted above what you are able, but will with the temptation also make the way of escape, that you may be able to endure it.” (1 Cor. 10:13)
Now Luther goes into his once-saved-always-saved theme. He taught that we are forgiven no matter what we do, no matter how many and serious are our sins. So he concludes that Jesus didn’t really mean what He clearly said. Jesus’ admonition to forgive others is merely to help us know inside what is true in reality, that we are already forgiven—because we can never be unforgiven.
According to Luther, we don’t have to forgive others in order to be forgiven (Jesus made sure we understood  this is what He meant in verse 12 by his emphatic statements in verses 14 and 15), we forgive others only so we can “obtain consolation to comfort the conscience.”

Therefore there is here again great need to call upon God and to pray: Dear Father, forgive us our trespasses. Not as though He did not forgive sin without and even before our prayer (for He has given us the Gospel, in which is pure forgiveness before we prayed or ever thought about it). But this is to the intent that we may recognize and accept such forgiveness. For since the flesh in which we daily live is of such a nature that it neither trusts nor believes God, and is ever active in evil lusts and devices, so that we sin daily in word and deed, by commission and omission by which the conscience is thrown into unrest, so that it is afraid of the wrath and displeasure of God, and thus loses the comfort and confidence derived from the Gospel; therefore it is ceaselessly necessary that we run hither and obtain consolation to comfort the conscience again.

So, according to Luther, if we willfully sin sins that lead to death, and feel guilty as a result, so that we lose our comfort and confidence before God, even being afraid of the wrath and displeasure of God, this is only an illusion. This fear is unwarranted (even though Hebrews 10:26-39 and many other scriptures say the opposite), and forgiving others helps us feel right with God again; even though, in reality we were right with Him all along.
Jesus said the opposite. We must forgive to be forgiven, and that’s why we feel right after doing so, because then we are right. Martin Luther was clearly a false teacher who was deceived, himself, and tragically, the false doctrines he taught are still widely accepted today!

But this should serve God’s purpose of breaking our pride and keeping us humble. For in case any one should boast of his godliness and despise others, God has reserved this prerogative to Himself, that the person is to consider himself and place this prayer before his eyes, and he will find that he is no better than others, and that in the presence of God all must lower their plumes, and be glad that they can attain forgiveness. And let no one think that as long as we live here he can reach such a position that he will not need such forgiveness. In short, if God does not forgive without ceasing, we are lost.

That’s precisely Jesus’ point. God does not forgive without ceasing, so many are indeed lost, having believed this lie.
We must obey — Jesus.
We don’t have to obey — Luther.
God’s forgiveness is conditional — Jesus.
“God forgives freely and without condition” — Luther (says below).

It is therefore the intent of this petition that God would not regard our sins and hold up to us what we daily deserve, but would deal graciously with us, and forgive, as He has promised, and thus grant us a joyful and confident conscience to stand before Him in prayer. For where the heart is not in right relation towards God, nor can take such confidence, it will nevermore venture to pray. But such a confident and joyful heart can spring from nothing else than the [certain] knowledge of the forgiveness of sin.

But there is here attached a necessary, yet consolatory addition: As we forgive. He has promised that we shall be sure that everything is forgiven and pardoned, yet in the manner that we also forgive our neighbor. For just as we daily sin much against God and yet He forgives everything through grace, so we, too, must ever forgive our neighbor who does us injury, violence, and wrong, shows malice toward us, etc. If, therefore you do not forgive, then do not think that God forgives you; but if you forgive, you have this consolation and assurance, that you are forgiven in heaven, not on account of your forgiving, — for God forgives freely and without condition, out of pure grace, because He has so promised, as the Gospel teaches, — but in order that He may set this up for our confirmation and assurance for a sign alongside of the promise which accords with this prayer, Luke 6, 37: Forgive, and ye shall be forgiven. Therefore Christ also repeats it soon after the Lord’s Prayer, and says, Matt. 6,14: For if ye forgive men their trespasses, your heavenly Father will also forgive you, etc.

In the Lord’s Prayer, Jesus clearly gives a condition to us in order for our sins to be forgiven: “as we forgive others who trespass against us.” “For if you don’t forgive….” But this didn’t fit into Luther’s forgiven-no-matter-what theology in which “God forgives freely and without condition.” So Luther concluded that James shouldn’t be scripture because it talks about the necessity of obedience, and Jesus can’t really mean what He is really saying — because it doesn’t fit into the once-infant-baptized-always-saved (OBAS?) formula. Luther turns Jesus’ crystal clear condition that Jesus emphasized after the ‘Amen’ into an unnecessary mental exercise, “a sign” that merely helps us appease our consciences.
We don’t really have to forgive because it’s all ‘automatic,’ anyway. Though Jesus clearly said we need to. This is the deception: OSAS — Once-saved-always-saved.
Jesus said it clearly here and elsewhere, as did Paul, John, and almost every book in the New Testament. We can’t keep willfully sinning sins that lead to death: lust, hatred (unforgiveness on steroids), lying, envy, etc. and be right enough with God and man in order to go to heaven. “For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, these are children of God” — Paul in Romans 8:14. It’s not automatic. There are strings. We must abide in Christ, walk in love, forgiving, having pure hearts of gold.
Jesus in Mathew 6:

14 For if ye forgive men their trespasses, your heavenly Father will also forgive you:

15 But if ye forgive not men their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses.

How the previous post, “What the Lord’s Prayer really says about FORGIVING…,” came about
Martin Luther: Sin Boldly — “No sin can separate us from Him, even if we were to kill or commit adultery thousands of times each day”
Martin Luther’s Subordinate Bible Books: Hebrews, James, Jude & Revelation
Luther: Let us BANISH the epistle of James, for it is ‘WORTHLESS’ — written by a non-Christian and can’t be reconciled with Paul
The Protestant Reformers Were Frauds: By their Fruits You Will Know Them — Martin Luther was a false teacher, a racist, a persecutor and a murderer! John Calvin was a false teacher, a deranged tyrant, a persecutor and a murderer!
Martin Luther Cursed from His Heart Catholic Leaders, ‘Every Day’
Who-Goes-To-Heaven Scriptures — Narrow is the Way | Who are the Children of God? (Where Paul is reconciled with James — and with Hebrews and 1 John — and with Jesus. It all works!)

Sid Roth: GOING to a CHURCH might be a BIG PLACEBO — "This is ETERNAL LIFE: that you might KNOW HIM"

Adapted from: Sid Roth’s It’s Supernatural pdf transcript

“You know very few ‘Christians’ have intimacy with God — very few. Most ‘Christians’ are just plain religious.

And I don’t want to get into theology, but I am not even sure whetherjust being religious, just going to church has much to do with going to heaven. I think it might be a big placebo. …

This is eternal life: that you might know Him‘ — ‘know Him.'”

– Sid Roth
Watch Video with Guest, Bobby Conner

“My guest Bobby Conner prayed for a baby with half
a face missing. Before his eyes the face materialized.

That’s normal. I wish the whole world were normal.”
Related: Who-Goes-To-Heaven Scriptures — Narrow is the Way

Hell is Real — There were some ministers there with their whole congregations gnashing their teeth on this minister: "You told us you had the truth. We followed you!"

From: Sid Roth’s It’s Supernatural

On It’s Supernatural:

At age 12, Franklin Walden was carried into the heavens
and told he would minister healing to hurting people,
and that it would be seen and heard throughout the world.
He has seen the lame walk, the blind see,
and the dead being raised to life. …

Sid: Why does one doctor call you “the miracle man”?

Franklin: Well, I left my body for 21 days.

Sid: What happened? Did you have a heart problem?

Franklin: No, I had a ruptured colon, and I almost bled to death.

Sid: So you’re laying in the hospital bed,
but you’re not in that bed, you’re somewhere else.
Where are you at?

Franklin: First I was at a place with my family,
then my wife and I went into the heavens.
God carried us to a place I believe was paradise.
Then I came back, and carried me beneath the earth,
and went into hell. That’s the sad part.

Most people don’t know, but hell is real.
When I saw what’s going on,
and heard the gnashing of the teeth
and the screams of the damned and the doomed,
then I looked and there were some ministers there
with their whole congregations

They were gnashing their teeth on this minister,
and he couldn’t get away.
They said You told us you had the truth.
We followed you

Sid: Was that minister suffering? It sounds like it.

Franklin: Oh my, was he going through it.

pdf transcript of entire program
Watch Video
Related: Who-Goes-To-Heaven Scriptures — Narrow is the Way (The straight scoop)

(video) Shelley Lubben Former Porn Actress Finds Freedom in Christ — "I had to forgive everybody"

[youtube=]Shelley Lubben Former Porn Actress on 700 Club

Shelley Lubben, a former porn actress, shares the truth about porn on the 700 Club in 2006. To hear more shocking stories of ex porn stars visit her web site at

(video) Ex Porn Star Tells the Hardcore Truth About Porn
Former Porn Actress Shelley Lubben: Porn is Not Glamorous and Destroys Lives — “I used to brag endlessly to fans and pornographers about how I loved making porn movies. I lied 100% of the time to 100% of the people”
(video) Ex Porn Star’s Amazing Story: “For eight years, I battled the Devil for my life with the Word. I’d fall … I fell a little bit less … and I started WALKING TALL, like a CHAMPION!!!”
(video)Ex Porn Star Shelley Lubben’s FREEDOM Testimony: The Champion in You!!!
[ video ] Ex Porn Star Shelley Lubben Speaks at Bakersfield Christian High School — “Do you know that you’re a CHAMPION?!”
Ex Porn Star Shelley Lubben on The Howard Stern Show: Porn Stars are Demon Possessed!
Twelve Steps of Sex Addicts Anonymous involves getting right with those who’ve been hurt — so we can BE FREE! | I’m ADDING MORE STEPS.
[Lust “the poison that kills the soul” FREEDOM] My experience: How DEMONS DRIVE heterosexual and homosexual lust in ‘Christians’ — The bad news is that demons drive lust. The good news is that demons drive lust, because…
All of my Lust Freedom! posts. We can be free!!!
Who-Goes-To-Heaven Scriptures — Narrow is the Way We must be free!!!