IHOP head, Mike Bickle says this (from: IHOP…):
Our last awakening service this year was on Saturday, October 9. Wes Hall shared at Forerunner Christian Fellowship on Sunday, September 19, on how the Lord spoke to us about this. We encourage you to listen to Wes’s message.
“The awakening leadership received a word from the Lord from several people, leading them to the conclusion that it was time to discontinue the awakening services for a season. At that time, the nightly meetings were full of life and full of people, yet Wes Hall, Allen Hood, and the awakening leadership team responded in obedience to the word from the Lord. It is very unusual for leaders to stop such meetings when they are full and successful by every human standard. The fruit from laboring for eleven months in this time of awakening (November 2009 to October 2010) is very good. We received over 6,000 testimonies of emotional and physical healing from all over the world and we have had the privilege of baptizing over 1,700 people. I am very proud of the excellent leadership of Wes Hall and Allen Hood and their team. The IHOP–KC family is in a much better place because of their labors.”
Here’s my take:
I was totally rooting for IHOP! Their goal was to see the Third Great Awakening happen before their eyes, which is God’s goal.
For about 3 months, I watched many of the 6-hour meetings in their entirety. I was thrilled at Wes Hall’s attitude and teachings. But more and more I became leery about what IHOPU president, Allen Hood was saying.
It’s no surprise to me that the revival started in Wes’ class. Wes just shone. He seems to be as pure as snow. It’s also no surprise that Wes became noticeably touched by God over and over and over, while Allen seemed to be hardly affected.
“God opposes the proud but gives grace to the humble.” This is a principle that I’ve seen demonstrated in many of the revival meetings I’ve been in.
I have found that most church leaders aren’t fully right with God and people, so it’s usually the norm that they don’t get touched. You can watch them. Hundreds will be greatly touched by God, as did Wes, but with the leaders who aren’t holy, little happens, or they put on an act.
Wes stated a number of times that who gets touched doesn’t really mean anything, but from what I’ve seen, “God opposes the proud but gives grace to the humble” is a key factor, if not the key factor.
It is my opinion that God wants to move among every human being in fullness, but we have to be right with Him and each other, otherwise bad things would happen when God reveals Himself in a greater fullness. So God can’t fully come until our hearts are pure. Mike Bickle knows this:
In Acts, Ananias and Sapphira died because they publicly lied in God’s presence. The believers in these meetings were greatly respected, but “none of the rest dared to join them.”
After Ananias and Sapphira died, Luke writes in Acts 5:
11 Great fear came on the whole assembly, and on all who heard these things.
12 By the hands of the apostles many signs and wonders were done among the people. They were all with one accord in Solomon’s porch. 13 None of the rest dared to join them, however the people honored them. 14 More believers were added to the Lord, multitudes of both men and women.
Why didn’t the rest dare to join them? Because they weren’t right enough with God and people, just like most ‘Christians’ today. They weren’t walking in “perfect love” so their “perfect love casted out all fear (James)” to be able to rest in confidence in the manifest presence of the HOLY Spirit.
Most ‘Christians’ today (including leadership) are either putting on that they’re holy or they don’t even claim to be. After all, the currently popular teaching is that they’re saved no matter what — if they’ve been truly been born again — which is the very doctrine that are keeping ‘churches’ from being holy enough for God to fully come.
To me, it is crystal clear that the main thing that kept the IHOP awakening meetings in the stuck mode is Allen Hood’s salvation doctrine (see related articles, below) which Mike Bickle must have approved. Mike even said in his statement “I am very proud of … Allen Hood;” even though, Allen gave attendees a license to willfully sin. I wrote these. It’s so clear:
They kept asking, even telling God to come, but the Holy Spirit couldn’t come in His fullness as He has done in so many previous revivals, including Acts 5 — which is just what is supposed to be normal Christianity. God wants to live among us in a very real way.
There was Allen Hood’s false salvation teaching, but there was also key exhortation that was curiously absent. I kept waiting and waiting and waiting…. The main theme of the Asbury revival (that they must have known about, having studied revival history) was totally missing: the importance of getting right with each other: Asbury Revival, 1970: “‘Dr. Kinlaw, I am a liar. Now what do I do?’ … Three days later, she came to me radiant, and she said, ‘Dr. Kinlaw, I’m free!’” Not once, did I hear one of the leaders say we need to get right with each other. Not once!!! As if Asbury never happened.
IHOP also ignored the church history that God emphasized to Shelley Hundley in a dream. He showed her specifically how Jonathan Edwards was a key example for them. But Jonathan Edwards’ Sinners in the Hand of an Angry God was the opposite of what Allen Hood kept repeating over and over: God loves us no matter what we do — the prevalent teaching in churchianity today — but the truth is still what the Bible clearly teaches: Who-Goes-To-Heaven Scriptures — Narrow is the Way | Who are the Children of God?
There was a key reason that God emphasized Jonathan Edwards, who taught the fear of the Lord, front and center, while Allen taught against the idea that the fear of the Lord applies to ‘Christians’ — except as to what we’ll have to go through on earth. See this.
IHOP was trying to bring in the revival without the Biblical requirement for holiness taught for us to just be real Christians. Only the pure in heart will see God. At Asbury, the Christians publicly confessed their sins. They did James 4, while the IHOP awakening meetings were largely just partysville. From God’s Remedy for James-3 Cursing & Partysville in Today’s Church is James 4:
“God resists the proud, but gives grace to the humble.”
7 Be subject therefore to God. But resist the devil, and he will flee from you. 8 Draw near to God, and he will draw near to you. Cleanse your hands, you sinners; and purify your hearts, you double-minded. 9 Lament, mourn, and weep. Let your laughter be turned to mourning, and your joy [partysville joy, not fruit-of-the-Holy-Spirit joy] to gloom.
10 Humble yourselves in the sight of the Lord, and he will exalt you.
There was mixture at IHOP. Holiness was an option, not a necessity for those who are God’s children, so many opted out; though, they wanted the blessing of being in God’s fullness while still being too fully in the world — not having even been told to get right with their neighbors so God could come.
Jesus greatly desires us to be ONE. He longs for us to be ONE. Only then will the world know, He said in John 17. Now, the world smells a rat. There is so much unrepentant sin in the ‘church.” God can’t come until we’re ONE. So let’s become ONE! And this will happen when holiness is no longer an option, which is what the Bible really teaches.
“The fear of the Lord is the beginning of wisdom.” ‘Church’ leaders claim to be wise, but they’re fools when they teach that none of the warning scriptures apply to us; though, they were clearly written to new covenant believers.
This is the great deception. This is what is destroying America and keeping real Christianity, the Third Great Awakening from happening in our midst.
I wonder how many thousands of times I heard those at IHOP actually tell God to come. What gall, I’ve often thought — us telling God what to do when He can’t come in His manifest presence or many would flat out die. How dare we, when He is the Potter and we are the clay.
I think it’s mainly a matter of one church somewhere getting their doctrines right and living accordingly. That will start the Third Great Awakening.
The positive message here is that when we get our doctrines right — especially regarding who goes to heaven — and when we live within what the Bible really says, we will have revival. It will be automatic follow.
The unwavering principle is “Draw near to God and He will draw near to you.” It’s not complicated. The Third Great Awakening didn’t happen at IHOP because those who are truly Christ’s wasn’t even taught. “Those who are Christ’s have crucified their flesh” (Paul in Galatians 5). The opposite was actually taught. “People were pacified.”
“God opposes the proud but gives grace to the humble.” Who are the humble? Those who obey. Who are those who obey? Those who actually really do love the Lord, our God with all of their heart, soul, mind and strength, and who really do love their neighbors as themselves.
That means we have to do Asbury. We have to get right with everybody we’ve hurt. We need to humble ourselves before God and each other. I believe the community that will do this will bring in the Third Great Awakening.
Many good things happened at IHOP. I don’t want to minimize the good. I gave much applause in this blog. I think Wes Hall, especially did a lot of good. I really like Wes! I think Wes and some of the others even plowed ground that will make it easier for the Third Great Awakening to happen. But Allen’s reverse-Bible salvation killed it. False salvation doctrine poured water on the whole move.
And then “we bless You, Lord” songs turned more into “bless us, Lord” songs. That was another factor. How much of the worship was really worship — especially in Spirit and in truth? Straight-to-God “We worship You” songs were hardly ever sung. “Worship” was more man centered than “You are awesome!” People’s hearts weren’t right. I saw certain worship leaders start to sing real worship songs, but it’s like the crowd wasn’t ready. They poured poured water on the coals, and rarely did the worship leaders have the courage to fully try again.
Only new wineskins can hold the New Wine, God Himself. It’s really simple. We can’t expect God to move among us differently than He did in previous revivals where the people really repented.
“God resists the proud, but gives grace to the humble.”
7 Be subject therefore to God. But resist the devil, and he will flee from you.
8 Draw near to God, and he will draw near to you.
Cleanse your hands, you sinners; and purify your hearts, you double-minded.
9 Lament, mourn, and weep. Let your laughter be turned to mourning, and your joy to gloom.
10 Humble yourselves in the sight of the Lord, and he will exalt you.
We shouldn’t be telling God what to do. We need to do what is right and then He will come. This is guaranteed when we really do humble ourselves to His standard.
Then He will come. We’ll see great miracles! The joy of the Lord will be our strength!
We can have a permanent Asbury where there will be no doubt that God is among us. But first, we need to get our salvation doctrine right.
Or America has to totally fall and we lose everything. Maybe that would also bring about real repentance. But why are we going to wait until then?
We can have revival now. It’s just a matter of us doing what we already know to do — what the Holy Spirit has been convicting us of.
False teachers should step down. Those who teach the truth will bring in this next move.
Luther didn’t get it, yet most pastors basically teach what Luther taught. Some follow John Calvin, but he didn’t get it either. And certainly the Catholic Church didn’t get it. So let’s get it!
We need to believe what Jesus, Paul, James, John, and what the writer to the Hebrews taught.
Then we’ll see heart-soaring, pure revival come!
Related:
My 1990 Key-to-Revival Prophecy: “There is might and there is power and there is glory, but it is being withheld until these relationships are made right, until we love our brother enough to…”
The Welsh Revival of 1904-05 by J. Edwin Orr: A Countrywide Asbury-like REVIVAL! The 4 Points: #1 Confess any known sin, and put any wrong done to man right again. #2 Put away any doubtful habit. #3 Obey the Spirit promptly. #4 Confess your faith publicly.
Asbury Revival, 1970: “‘Dr. Kinlaw, I am a liar. Now what do I do?’ … Three days later, she came to me radiant, and she said, ‘Dr. Kinlaw, I’m free!’”
Paul’s Elders’ qualifications revisited: What does ‘BLAMELESS’ mean? — Most pastors are biblically disqualified
False, revival killing, salvation doctrine at IHOP continues from IHOPU president, Allen Hood at the Awakening meetings 🙁
FALSE DOCTRINE: Why won’t Christian leaders even mention Hebrews 10:26? An IHOP example — so close and yet so far away — from full REVIVAL 🙁
Here is an example (if you listen to the audio) of how close (and yet so far away) Mike Bickle (head of IHOP) is to the truth about who goes to heaven
Mike Bickle, Head of IHOP: From Porn to Worship “Within the Minute?” Yikes, Mike!
(video) The Azusa Street Revival (1906-15): The biggest move of miracles in the history of America — The fire of God’s glory on the roof! “Even the fingernails grew back!” In 1909, Seymour prophesied the next, even greater revival will come in about 100 years! We’re due!!!
Tommy Welchel on William Seymour and Charles Parham’s 100-Year Prophecy: On the same day in 1909, hundreds of miles apart, they both prophesied God’s visible shekina glory would return to earth after 100 years, but this time everywhere!
Wes Hall [IHOP] on William Seymour’s *1909 prophecy* of the SHEKINAH GLORY RETURNING to the church *in 100 years*: “Let me tell you about the church in the book of Acts. ..the fear of God was on the community, and…they were highly esteemed” | My theory …
Smith Wigglesworth: “THE LAST DAY REVIVAL WILL BE THE GREATEST revival this world has ever seen!”
(audio) Sid Roth on ‘Coast to Coast AM’ 9/1/13: Miracles & Healing — Why did the Azusa St. revival stop (1906-1909)? William Seymour “became too sophisticated for the box” — to hear and obey — but prophesied an even greater revival would happen in 100 years!
Sid Roth: The missing ingredient, speaking in tongues — “I believe that God wants to restore this gift for the last great push of God’s spirit”
Effects of the WELSH REVIVAL 1904-05: Whole communities were radically changed FROM DEPRAVITY TO GLORIOUS GOODNESS. The CRIME RATE dropped, often to nothing. THE POLICE had little more to do than supervise the coming and going of the people to the chapel prayer meetings. THE UNDERGROUND MINES echoed with the sounds of PRAYER and HYMNS, instead of nasty jokes and gossip. People who had fallen out BECAME FRIENDS AGAIN!!!!!!!
Can ‘Christians’ use Paul’s “Forgetting the things which are behind…I press on” statement as an excuse to not get right with those they’ve hurt? Paul also said: “I also practice ALWAYS having a conscience void of offense toward God and men.” What if you don’t repent? And what will happen when you do? The Third Great Awakening can start with us!!! We can all be happy — ‘ONE’!
‘Let Us Be ONE’ Prophecy Continues 10/8/08: “It’s TOO LATE to REVERSE what’s been done for MY MEN have been REJECTED … Now is the Time to OVERCOME and GET RIGHT With ALL … FREEeeeeeeeeeeeee———DOM at last … Your HEART will SWELL with LOVE and it will be EASY to REMAIN In Me when others are On The BOAT With You”
Who-Goes-To-Heaven Scriptures — Narrow is the Way | Who are the Children of God? — “There is therefore now *no condemnation* to those who are IN CHRIST Jesus, who don’t WALK according to the flesh, but ACCORDING TO THE SPIRIT.”
Joe Schimmel: The Great Deception—Once Saved, Always Saved
The Low-Cut Top Epidemic: May We Be Holy
All of my Lust Freedom! posts (in reverse-chronological order)
All of my Who Goes to Heaven posts (in reverse-chronological order)
All of my IHOP posts (in reverse-chronological order)
bishop
Why do you not lead the revival since you are one of the few that is holy and gets it? Please demonstrate how we can get it like you do. Thanks.
Jeff Fenske
Bishop,
Despite your sarcasm, I appreciate you sharing. It gives me a chance to share my perspective.
To start with, if we’re not holy we’re not Christians. “Those who are Christ’s have crucified their flesh.” When we realize this we’re mostly there.
When we realize we’ve been deceived, we’re on our way.
So what you say is what I’m trying to do. I’m trying to do my part to help this move happen. I won’t be the main leader though, but I may help the main leader, and it may happen here in Alaska.
I’ll be writing about this maybe tomorrow.
The Third Great Awakening needs to happen, and we should be rooting each other on. The sooner it happens somewhere the better off we all are.
And if we love each other as ourselves we will be rooting each other on, not being jealous, which is one of the going to heaven disqualifiers in Galatians 5, by the way.
“Check your heart,” I believe God said.
Freedom (from darkness) in Christ!
jeff : )
Angela Flippen
I agree with you Jeff, for what it is worth.
John Vian
Jesus asked a question in Luke 18:18 which He didn’t answer. The question was, “Nevertheless when the Son of man cometh, shall he find faith on the earth?”
I’m afraid to answer this question, all I know is this day and age is like unto the days of Noah and Sodom, Gomorrah. It’s frightening to imagine the accuracy of the prophecies spoken by Jesus and what God speaks in His Word.
“For the leaders of this people cause them to err; and they that are led of them are destroyed.
Therefore the Lord shall have no joy in their young men, neither shall have mercy on their fatherless and widows: for every one is an hypocrite and an evildoer, and every mouth speaketh folly. For all this his anger is not turned away, but his hand is stretched out still.
For wickedness burneth as the fire: it shall devour the briers and thorns, and shall kindle in the thickets of the forest, and they shall mount up like the lifting up of smoke.
Through the wrath of the LORD of hosts is the land darkened, and the people shall be as the fuel of the fire: no man shall spare his brother.”
Isaiah 9:16-19
“The earth mourneth and fadeth away, the world languisheth and fadeth away, the haughty people of the earth do languish.
The earth also is defiled under the inhabitants thereof; because they have transgressed the laws, changed the ordinance, broken the everlasting covenant.
Therefore hath the curse devoured the earth, and they that dwell therein are desolate: therefore the inhabitants of the earth are burned, and few men left.”
Isaiah 24:4-6
“Behold, the name of the LORD cometh from far, burning with his anger, and the burden thereof is heavy: his lips are full of indignation, and his tongue as a devouring fire:
And his breath, as an overflowing stream, shall reach to the midst of the neck, to sift the nations with the sieve of vanity: and there shall be a bridle in the jaws of the people, causing them to err.”
Isaiah 30:27-2
Proverbs speaks of this generation with an eerie tone:
“There is a generation that curseth their father, and doth not bless their mother.
There is a generation that are pure in their own eyes, and yet is not washed from their filthiness.
There is a generation, O how lofty are their eyes! and their eyelids are lifted up.
There is a generation, whose teeth are as swords, and their jaw teeth as knives, to devour the poor from off the earth, and the needy from among men.”
Proverbs 30:11-14
There are plenty of verses giving grave warnings to every soul who has ever lived. Yet people are given to lies, lust, deception, and all manner of fruits of the flesh for the gratifications of their souls. Destruction is always the end result and the volcanoes are proof that hell is enlarging herself for the masses of the people going there.
God does not send anyone to hell, they only choose to walk the path which leads therein.
Jeff Fenske
Thanks John,
May we all search the Scriptures and listen to the Holy Spirit with pure hearts (so no demonic forces can have direct access) to find the truth together.
To God be the glory!
Jeff : )
post-tribber
Thank you for putting the blog on this website.
Tons of good stuff on this blog, appreciate finding all of it. Thank you so much.
I checked out the IHOP site and was blown away — at first. All those musicians and so talented. The goal to have 24/7 praise and intercession, what a great idea.
I listened for hours and hours and then I started to feel like I was in a trance, a soul-numbing trance, not a soul-uplifting trance. In the end, it’s just entertainment.
The prayers are just histrionics, PC, and it’s all just theater, a place to show off musical talent.
I do wonder, where is all this musical talent coming from? The churches are full of talented musicians like these, and they are very, very talented. But they are also uncaring about holiness. So who are these musicians working for really? Who is annointing them in their music?
Hmmmmm?
When are they going to intercede for peace, to end the stinking wars, and the world heading straight to WWIII, to the tyranny engulfing the U.S? The abortion, the porn, the sexual sins, the greed, the selfishness?
I’m not holding my breath. I don’t go to church anymore. I can’t stomach it. I listen to Dan Corner and try to talk to people.
Jeff Fenske
Post-tribber,
I’m a post-tribber too. But if I’m surprised and there is some kind of a pre-trib or mid-trib rapture, only those who are real going-to-heaven Christians would be taken out anyway Who-Goes-To-Heaven Scriptures — Narrow is the Way, which leaves out most of the pre-tribers, of whom most aren’t abiding in Christ and aren’t being taught to make sure they’re right with their neighbors either.
I’m glad you shared what you did, but it makes me sad. We could have had real Christianity in churches all of this time. When will we learn from our mistakes? And when can we go back to church because it really is the church?
This is Thanksgiving. I’m supposed to be thankful, buy my heart is so sad. Jesus’ heart is so sad too. Please check out my 20-page prophecy which pretty much sums it up — yet hardly anyone will read it. I’ve had it up for years: “Let Us Be ONE” (A Prophecy — 2001-02, 2008)
Feel My hurt. It is great. My people have vanished from My life. I am sad, and you are lonely. There are few that remain close to Me where I can nourish their souls.
I’ve been watching Mike Bickle, and have been impressed with him since 1979. He really is quite a guy, but he doesn’t follow the Bible and the Holy Spirit in some key areas, and this has kept the Third Great Awakening from happening at IHOP, what they had longed for.
Again, we don’t even have one church in America that has even a reputation for being alive, which at least Sardis had; though, only a few in Sardis hadn’t soiled their clothes so they were worthy and would not have their names removed from the Book of Life. And who teaches this today: Rev. 3:1-5
People and preachers act like this and other Scriptures like this don’t even exist — to their own peril — and to the frustration of many.
There are at least a few false doctrines that I believe kept the move of God from fully happening at IHOP. Chief is the once-saved-always-saved doctrine which was taught by President of IHOPU, Allen Hood, which I show in this blog.
Dan Corner and others have completely and utterly refuted that, but then they don’t show what the Bible really says about what is required to go to heaven and be a child of God. And this is what I do in Who-Goes-To-Heaven Scriptures — Narrow is the Way. If just one church will teach and live the truth, then I believe real Christianity and revival will happen, and you and I will be soaring!
IHOP has some other doctrinal issues and practices that hold them back too.
I’ve watched and listened to the prayer room for hundreds, if not thousands of hours over a few years. It’s not as bad as you say. There are some really good people there with good hearts, clean hearts, but there is this male leadership verses female leadership tension, which Mike allows because he totally throws out what Paul said about women leading men in the church.
I believe there is a place for women to lead worship, but if you watch awhile you may sense what I’m talking about. There is a rebellious spirit in many of the women at IHOP, and the guys probably won’t last long unless they keep their mouth shut.
I saw one male worship leader really worshiping real worship songs (not the sideways or bless-us-Lord stuff), and then I saw the lead singer on his team take it in the other direction, and Ryan didn’t stick to his guns to bring it back into real worship. He let her take over. And I never saw him try this again.
The Devil loves this, and many ‘churches’ are giving demons a place by being unbiblical in the women’s ministry area. I’ve seen it at Rick Joyner’s church too.
So much of the problem in the church is bad doctrine. But that means that much of the solution is good doctrine. So that’s why I focus a lot on doctrine in this site.
Mike Bickle knows enough to focus on the Greatest Two Commandments. He’s very wise in many ways, and I appreciate his endeavor to go for it. But it doesn’t make sense to pray a lot in the prayer room to repent for abortion and human trafficking, and pray not at all for us to repent for supporting immoral wars in which we have slaughtered millions!
In abortions, at least the babies go to heaven, but the wars that the evangelicals support send most of the people straight to hell. I don’t understand how this can be so clear to myself and perhaps you but they don’t see it at all?
I have never seen even one time where anyone prayed for us to repent for supporting these immoral wars. They must know that Mike won’t allow it. This is wrong. It’s a total misapplication of Jesus’ 2nd greatest commandment.
I think if you or I would go in there and speak the truth in love we’d get run out of their in a heartbeat. But Mike laughs and jokes around and acts like everything is great.
This is really common among church leaders today. I call it partysville: God’s Remedy for James-3 Cursing & Partysville in Today’s Church is James 4. But pastors just want to keep the party going, laughing while the ship is going down.
Mike is a lot better than many. He knows the ship is going down, but he still tries to keep everyone’s spirits up, which is a type of lying. Instead of being straight with the people, saying “something is wrong. We need to figure out what it is.” Pastors just “Rah Rah” the churches full speed ahead.
While K-LOVE lulls the people to sleep across this nation with positive-encouragement, “God loves you even though you don’t feel like He does,” the opposite of what Jesus taught in John 15 and what Paul taught in Romans 8. We’ll feel right when we are right:
1 There is therefore now no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus, who don’t walk according to the flesh, but according to the Spirit. 2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus made me free from the law of sin and of death. 3 For what the law couldn’t do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God did, sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh and for sin, he condemned sin in the flesh; 4 that the ordinance of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
5 For those who live according to the flesh set their minds on the things of the flesh, but those who live according to the Spirit, the things of the Spirit. 6 For the mind of the flesh is death, but the mind of the Spirit is life and peace….
12 So then, brothers, we are debtors, not to the flesh, to live after the flesh. 13 For if you live after the flesh, you must die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the deeds of the body, you will live. 14 For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, these are children of God. 15 For you didn’t receive the spirit of bondage again to fear, but you received the Spirit of adoption, by whom we cry, “Abbaa! Father!”
16 The Spirit himself testifies with our spirit that we are children of God; 17 and if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if indeed we suffer with him, that we may also be glorified with him. 18 For I consider that the sufferings of this present time are not worthy to be compared with the glory which will be revealed toward us. 19 For the creation waits with eager expectation for the children of God to be revealed.
That last line…. People are eagerly waiting for us to get it right!
It’s like what Jesus said in John 17: “Then the world will know” — when we’re ONE with each other in Him!
We can do it. If we build it He will come. And part of that is recognizing the body. It’s frustrating to not be recognized by the body. But we need to make sure that we don’t do to them what they did to us.
It’s important to not throw out the baby with the bathwater. I feel a kindred Spirit with Mike Bickle and many of those at IHOP. I appreciate much of what they’ve done. But Mike is a lot like Alex Jones, who I post a lot from at my other main site: ToBeFree. Neither Mike nor Alex are careful analytics. They’re more like bulldogs. And they make a lot of mistakes by not making sure that what they’re doing is right.
Mike is actually a lot better than Alex (Alex has stepped on some people and he needs to get right with them), but they both remind me of each other. I don’t think Mike is called to lead a church without having a team of people to balance him.
The church that begins the Third Great Awakening will have better balance. God isn’t going to show up until things are really right.
Most church leaders are confidence-men. They can fool the people that things are great (though many won’t be fooled and won’t attend), but God can never be fooled. The test of a good church is not attendance, but whether God shows up or not. And this will be evidenced by a great peace and awe that can be easily felt. We’ll be at home, at rest with our God and each other.
Mike is a good guy, but IHOP has too many holes in their cistern to be able to hold the water of the Holy Spirit in the great amounts they’re calling for.
We need to get our cisterns air tight, so that when God comes He can remain — we in Him and He in us abiding forever.
I’m thankful that I can learn from people like Mike’s successes and failures.
Somebody has to get this thing going. We’re running out of time. Like you say, we’re heading right into WWIII, and the ‘church’ even voted for Skull and Bonesman, George W. Bush in his second term. They want to point the finger at Obama and ignore what Bush did. Now Bush even admits he sanctioned the torture, while he ran as a born-again ‘Christian.’ Yeah, sure.
It’s amazing to me how the evangelicals almost universally promoted the Constitution destroyer, the warmongerer, while almost universally dissing the Constitution defender, the peacemaker, Ron Paul.
We’re heading into a police state, and the evangelicals are mainly to blame. This is so right on! The Red Gate Prophecy — What If I Open It Just a Little Bit?
A church somewhere needs to openly admit what the ‘church’ has done in order to be the church. To see Jesus smile we need to be right with all.
“Then the world will know.”
Now, they smell a rat — which it is.
Let’s do it!
P.S. I just heard: “we need to fall on our faces and obey.”
Jeff Fenske
Anchorage
Brandon Chavez
Julie Meyer shared a dream a while back that explained why the Lord was manefesting in some and not others. It was peculiar at the time because many first year interns were experiencing Him, much more than those who had been around. In the dream He said this was to provoke the older ones. There was Zero mention of any hidden sin or fault in the older but rather they were being tested to see if they would react in pride and jealousy or would they be humble and pray for the young ones to have more. Sin does keep us from the presense of God, but if you teach that ‘if you are not experiencing God you are in sin’, then you will have a lot of ppl ‘faking it.’ Having a prophetic Spirit means knowing why He withholds His presense, and manefestion, its not always cut and dry.
This is her prophetic experience releated to the awakenings.
pt 1
http://www.facebook.com/video/video.php?v=786480828985
pt 2
http://www.facebook.com/video/video.php?v=786598632905
It also seemed to touch on the grey selfappointed heresy hunter mentality that will actually accuse the Lord’s work. For He often chooses the seemingly foolish things to shame those wise in their own understanding. He didn’t come the way the Pharisees wanted either.
http://www.intervarsity.org/mx/item/4175/download/ is an interesting position on whether or not Julie or Shelley violate Scripture when speaking in these meetings.
“In dreams and visions blue often represents heavenly-mindedness – the sky is blue – and gray speaks of those who live by the power of their own minds – the brain is often called gray matter – This will be a conflict between those greys who may be genuine Christians, but who live mostly according to their natural minds and human wisdom, and those blues who follow the Holy Spirit. ..I do not believe that this revival can now be stopped, or that the Lord wants it stopped.”
Jeff Fenske
Brandon,
I appreciate very much your contributions here! These are very important topics.
I’m taking time to respond because this is such a hot-button issue that I’m trying to be careful.
I’ll respond more fully soon. In the meantime, I’ve posted these two related articles.
This is a video I gave to a number of people many years ago, trying to help them understand the women’s ministry issue. I think it is very important and mostly balanced.
Notice how this relates to what Paul said in 1 Timothy.
[video] Adrian Rogers on MEN and WOMEN: Celebrate the Difference — “God made us different that He might make us one.” It’s time to stop trying to be the be the same or resenting each other because of our differences.
I’ll say more soon about your link to the pdf teaching on 1 Timothy. The 1 Timothy passage is the key. And don’t be intimidated by those who quote from the Greek. This doesn’t mean their logic is reasonable. This author probably made a lot of female friends writing this article though. Not everyone has pure motives.
This Elijah List article puts a lot of things into perspective. Even Bob Jones is mentioned.
“My 7 Years Working for The Elijah List” — Ear-tickling messages coddling people into deceptive slumber: ‘Encouraging words only’ philosophy; the misinterpretation of Matt. 7:1-5 (not judging); the misuse of the term ‘Grace’ …. The end result of prophecy should be God’s people repenting.
The church is getting jacked! The deception is great!
The Third Great Awakening will only happen when we really are ONE with each other in Christ.
God gives us His glory so we can become ONE (John 17). But He pulls it when we get off target.
The women’s ministry issue should also be considered if ONE is to happen. Disobeying God’s word is serious. Paul knew what he was talking about. Demons will get in anyway they can.
We need to shut the door; keep out the Devil.
God will help us, even anointing us by His Spirit in the process, but doctrinal issues like once-saved-always-saved, tithing and even women’s ministry can keep us going around and around the mountain.
We’ll only enter the promised land when we get these doctrines right — in my opinion.
We must submit to God and not be on such a high horse.
“He is the potter; we are the clay” — we used to sing.
Jeff Fenske
Jeff Fenske
Brandon,
I added a few lines to what I said above.
With what Adrian Rogers said about the nature of man and woman, and with what the former Elijah List worker said about the hijacking of the prophetic movement I will continue my response as an analytical and careful thinker whose agenda is to understand the truth so we can be free!
We have to acknowledge that the church is messed up — regardless of the veneer — which is part of the con. The fruit is so bad — and God can’t fully move.
I know there are many church leaders who mean well, but when they ignore clear Bible teaching to do what the world is pressuring them to do we’re then on a slippery slope. We must get back on track submitting to the written and the rhema words of God. And the rhema will never disagree with the written.
So we must understand the written. And sadly, churches and seminaries aren’t doing a good job in teaching even the basics of hermeneutics — especially in what they’ve done to Paul’s writings: running with Paul’s introductions without even letting him finish his statements and what James Choung, the writer whom you mention http://www.intervarsity.org/mx/item/4175/download/ interprets Paul’s very clear admonitions to women. Notice that this is even about women’s salvation. Perhaps I should add this to Who-Goes-To-Heaven Scriptures — Narrow is the Way | Who are the Children of God? This isn’t some light thing that we can just dismiss because a doctor of ministry says he has an understanding from reading the Greek.
Some pastors and many seminary professors play the Greek card a lot, as if this gives them an inside track into Biblical understanding that the commoners don’t have. Graduates at the seminary that I attended (but never finished) are actually known for being puffed up with knowledge, but most know hardly anything about being led by the Holy Spirit, God Himself.
That’s where IHOP has an edge. At least they try to hear God’s voice. But when they practice the opposite of what God’s written word says they’re going to have mixture: people hearing God while also hearing demons. Because when people are in rebellion to God’s word there is sin in the camp — which gives place to the Devil.
We need to shut all of the doors with which demons can enter. Mike Bickle is excellent at opening doors that others have shut. He’s a warrior. But in his zeal to move ahead he’s sometimes careless, and lets demons have their way — and part of this is through women in church leadership, which is in direct violation of God’s word, no matter what Ph.D.s say. The Ph.D.s are a main part of the problem. You should see some of the textbooks.
Our systematic theology textbooks that covered the salvation doctrine specifically didn’t even site many of the scriptures I quote in Who-Goes-To-Heaven Scriptures…. Anyone can test this. If you leave near a seminary, visit the bookstore and look at the books required for the ST class that teaches salvation.
And this is how they get away with teaching false doctrine. They have a canon within the Canon.: D. A. Carson: The Problem of the Canon Within the Canon — A subset of scriptures taught in exclusion of those that would result in true doctrine. “We badly need to listen to one another, especially when we least like what we hear.”
The people perish for lack of knowledge. People think they’re getting the truth because those in authority claim they have it — but very few people really make sure that what they are being taught is true — and whether those they are listening to are even qualified and called by God to be in authority – Paul’s elders’ qualifications are hardly mentioned anymore — as if they don’t exist, but they are written in two NT books. Paul’s Elders’ qualifications revisited: What does ‘BLAMELESS’ mean? — Most pastors are biblically disqualified
And most people are not listening to what the Holy Spirit is telling them. Most people hear more than one voice, so they can’t tell which is the Holy Spirit’s and which are the demons.
And this is especially true when people are in rebellion to what God’s word clearly says — like women leading men within the church (and in the home).
There is a balance. Men have been abusive and overbearing, clearly reverse-Christian. And now we have this in response. Instead of the abusive men apologizing and getting on track so they can lead. They act like nothing is wrong when everything is wrong — and now demons have taken over their churches. The doctrine is all watered down. I’m thinking of some specific example that I’m very familiar with. They’re even willing to let women lead — as long as they can save face, not having to apologize to those they’ve hurt.
This is a big deal. Pastors who aren’t right with those they’ve hurt should step down, period. They can’t use what Paul said as an excuse. This is what happened here in Anchorage:
Can ‘Christians’ use Paul’s “Forgetting the things which are behind…I press on” statement as an excuse to not get right with those they’ve hurt? Paul also said: “I also practice ALWAYS having a conscience void of offense toward God and men.” What if you don’t repent? And what will happen when you do? The Third Great Awakening can start with us!!! We can all be happy — ‘ONE’!
The balance:
Obviously, women have great incite into things that men don’t. So men must love their wives, having a heart to fully listen and understand their perspective. But man was designed to run the garden, and women were designed to be man’s complement.
That’s the significance of Paul saying that Adam was formed first. It’s so simple, but many women don’t want to hear it, and many men are willing to go along to get along.
1 Timothy 2
8 I desire therefore that the men in every place pray, lifting up holy hands without anger and doubting.
9 In the same way, that women also adorn themselves in decent clothing, with modesty and propriety; not just with braided hair, gold, pearls, or expensive clothing; 10 but (which becomes women professing godliness) with good works. 11 Let a woman learn in quietness with all subjection. 12 But I don’t permit a woman to teach, nor to exercise authority over a man, but to be in quietness. 13 For Adam was first formed, then Eve. 14 Adam wasn’t deceived, but the woman, being deceived, has fallen into disobedience; 15 but she will be saved through her childbearing, if they continue in faith, love, and sanctification with sobriety.
A real prophet once told me that if I ever married a strong willed women I’d have to be stronger willed.
He was so right. How many married couples are sure that they married to person God wanted them to marry? This is another subject, but it’s related to the church, and it’s why I’m still single — and still able to think freely — because I didn’t marry someone I was not supposed to marry.
Then what happens when the home is out of balance and these people lead churches (in direct contradiction to Paul’s elders’ qualifications), whether it’s the woman or the man? This is so common. Women are wearing the pants — which opens the doors wide to the demons. And no one is really happy.
Rebellion is the sin of witchcraft, the Bible says.
If we let them, demons will drive us to do things we shouldn’t. And there is a lot of hurt in women which manifests itself in various ways. Why the short, butch hair cuts in prominent women church leaders. Perhaps some women at IHOP come to mind. Why do women want to look like men when Paul says their hair is their covering? For women, this can be a power-over look. For men, it’s just natural to have short hair.
But hair length isn’t the big deal. But it is not to be ignored either because Paul mentions it. There is a lack of respect for God’s word. People push to break out of the guard rails that the Bible clearly lays. And it’s demons that are pushing them. When we give them a place we have this mess, regardless of Mike Bickle standing there (referring to the video links above) as if everything is all right — saying nothing to bring balance.
Many women, especially, have a low view of Paul. Certain women will actually pray (James-3 curse others to also be against Paul).
There is absolutely a spirit of rebellion, which God’s word says is witchcraft. For many women, if they can’t be in charge directly, they’ll be in charge indirectly, through their husbands or in how they pray (James-3 curse — which I explain in depth in this site.) Men absolutely James-3 curse too — especially church leaders Dennis Cramer: “Most ‘Christians’ curse for the purpose of retaliation and vindication … ‘Christian’ leaders are even more vulnerable” — though I have a sense that Mike Bickle is a significant exception — and also Wes. Praise God! I think Mike has a good heart, but he lacks a really strong discernment of spirits gift (at least in some ways), which others have whom God probably sent him to listen to. But it can be easier to not listen to whom God sends. And until pastors do, the congregations will wander in the wilderness — no matter the hype — which is what is left after the Holy Spirit is no longer moving significantly — because the people would not move with the Cloud.
Before I go on, I should point out that a significant part of what Paul exhorts here in 1 Timothy has to do with how a woman dresses, but in most charismatic churches it’s common for women to even wear low-cut tops. This is just outright rebellion. And the pastors say nothing; though, many used to — or at least the older women did. I wrote this essay regarding this modesty subject, mentioning what a pastor told me in his office: The Low-Cut Top Epidemic: May We Be Holy.
At least Allen has said something from the pulpit regarding how women dress. But he won’t call a woman willfully revealing her body publicly a salvation issue; even though, Paul clearly does. And now we see it so clearly a salvation issue here in 1 Timothy 2 also.
It’s all connected, because this is all rebellion — witchcraft. “Do what thou wilt” is the Satanic bible’s theme.
Once saved, always saved is another form of “do what thou wilt. At the very least, it leads to “do what thou wilt.” The grace changers are running with Paul’s introductions to his books, ignoring the numerous warning scriptures that he says in the later chapters. This keeps the church in willful sin, and keeps real revival from happening.
The solution is this: God’s Remedy for James-3 Cursing & Partysville in Today’s Church is James 4
James 4 — Partysville and James-3 Cursing’s Remedy:
1 Where do wars and fightings among you [speaking to Christians] come from? Don’t they come from your pleasures that war in your members? 2 You lust, and don’t have. You kill [James just got done talking about ‘Christians’ cursing Christians, which is like killing — anyone who hates his brother is a murderer], covet, and can’t obtain. You fight and make war [James showed in chapter 3 that ‘Christians’ were cursing Christians from their hearts (v. 14). Text below].
You don’t have, because you don’t ask. 3 You ask, and don’t receive [opposite of 1 John 5:14-15], because you ask with wrong motives, so that you may spend it for your pleasures.
4 You adulterers and adulteresses [adultery = lusting in the heart (Mt. 5)], don’t you know that friendship with the world is enmity with God? Whoever therefore wants to be a friend of the world makes himself an enemy of God. 5 Or do you think that the Scripture says in vain, “The Spirit who lives in us yearns jealously“?
6 But he gives more grace. Therefore it says, “God resists the proud, but gives grace to the humble.”
7 Be subject therefore to God. But resist the devil, and he will flee from you. 8 Draw near to God, and he will draw near to you. Cleanse your hands, you sinners; and purify your hearts, you double-minded. 9 Lament, mourn, and weep. Let your laughter be turned to mourning, and your joy [partysville joy, not fruit-of-the-Holy-Spirit joy] to gloom.
10 Humble yourselves in the sight of the Lord, and he will exalt you.
* * *
Please don’t misunderstand. I absolutely believe there is a place for partying: There is A RIVER, the streams of which make the city of God glad! “Drink from THE WELL that will never run dry! Drink from THE WELL that will never run dry! Drink from THE WELL that will never run dry!!!”
I loved that, and would love to see this happen regularly. The glory of the Lord will help us overcome. But when the well stops and we try to keep playing the song, it falls flat, because the people haven’t moved with the cloud Who wants us to go further into holiness. The Cloud won’t continue to pour when we don’t move with It, Who is leading us to repent and get right with everyone we’ve hurt.
This isn’t rocket science. It’s pretty basic. If God doesn’t move on the group or on individuals it’s often because of willful sin.
Rebellion is as the sin of witchcraft. Why is this so downplayed? There isn’t the balance of considering the kindness and the sternness of God — and the consequences if we stay in our rebellion.
I’m trying to bring balance here. I understand that God wants to touch some people who won’t get touched because they won’t let God move them physically. It wasn’t until about the 10th Rodney Howard-Browne meeting I attended in a row that I let God do whatever He wanted with me.
I understand what she is saying. God wants to fill people to help them overcome sin. But the balance is that we have to be willing to overcome sin to receive this type of grace. For God resists the proud but gives grace to the humble.
Many just flat out refuse to get right with those they’ve hurt. They live fake lives that everything is okay when they have all of this secret sin. God won’t fill them with the River.
We all like the party, and some people need to get into the River by letting God do whatever. But the principles in James 4 should be a major theme. Otherwise unrepentant sinners may get touched, but not by God. Some even fake it. For God resists the proud and only gives grace to the humble.
Consider this video from Andrew Strom that I don’t fully agree with. I think Andrew Strom is out of balance here. I know for sure that Andrew is throwing out the Baby with the bathwater. But some of what he says is true. We should take heed and be careful. Holiness and getting right with those we’ve hurt should be a major theme; though, we hardly see it at all — especially the getting right with others part of holiness.
[youtube=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dWeUNoR30_0]SHOCKING DOCUMENTARY 3- False spirits invade the church – KUNDALINI WARNING – Andrew Strom
Uploaded by JohnTheBaptistTV on Oct 25, 2010
Part 3 – Shocking footage of one of the worst “invasions” of false spirits that the church has ever seen. Proof showing that she has been invaded by counterfeit spirits on a worldwide scale. This is the third part of a documentary tracing this massive invasion – and showing the terrible impact it has had. Please share it with your friends.
Leaders and movements involved:
prophetic, apostolic, todd bentley, lakeland revival, rick joyner, morningstar, toronto blessing, new mystics, john crowder, ihop, mike bickle, patricia king, false revival, the river, bob jones, john paul jackson, sid roth, chuck pierce, bill johnson, randy clark, peter wagner, dutch sheets, pentecostal, charismatic.
“The revival” is out of balance. Churches want the party part without the holiness part.
Andrew Strom concludes by saying “we’ve got to be a New Testament people.”
I do see this kind of thing happening to the disciples on Pentecost. But they were ready to obey.
What about us? Where is our emphasis? Why is God’s comfort emphasized way more than doing what He said and is saying to do?
It’s this “from porn to worship within the minute” concept that Mike at least was pushing. I don’t see this in the Bible. We’re missing some major James-4 steps here, like:
Cleanse your hands, you sinners; and purify your hearts, you double-minded. 9 Lament, mourn, and weep. Let your laughter be turned to mourning, and your joy to gloom.
10 Humble yourselves in the sight of the Lord, and he will exalt you.
God’s comfort (2 Cor. 1) will fill us when we’re ready to rock n’ roll His-style — and as we encounter difficult circumstances.
I laughed through an entire service one time in Toronto, after answering a call for those who have been told things by God that hasn’t yet happened. God filled me, comforting me …
He wants to comfort us tangibly. It’s wonderful to be in the River! But when people try to jump in and nothing happens, maybe they should take heed to Romans 8:1a and 1b (1b has been taken out of many Bibles).
Many people rightfully feel condemned, because they are under condemnation, letting themselves be led by the flesh instead of obeying the Holy Spirit.
When we do right we’ll feel right — and even then have the right to enter THE RIVER.
Romans 8:1-19
May we be holy > may the joy of the Lord give us strength > to be holy > so we can keep ourselves in the Love of God > where the joy of the Lord will give us strength >
Then the world will know. (John 17)
May the real party begin and continue as we are willing to obey Christ even if it means martyrdom.
I was in a meeting in which John Wimber called up those of us who felt like we would be martyrd.
The way things are going, we may all be called to be martyrs if they say take this mark or else.
We need to resist sin to the point of shedding blood, the writer of Hebrews said, having just mentioned some who had.
When a number of us have this attitude, being right with God and all men, then we’ll see the great awakening right before our eyes.
We need to get back to what the Bible really says and live accordingly. When we don’t give demons a place in our hearts, then we will only hear one voice — and we’ll all be ONE in Christ.
Then the world will know.
We need to get back to what the Bible really says if we’re going to have full revival.
This is pretty exciting, actually. I am so tired of the willful ignorance that I see in even the church leaders. And I’m concerned that we’re taking too long to get ONE happening.
All it takes are a few EMP weapons and America is basically toast. We have left ourselves that vulnerable.
Brandon, I applaud you for your efforts to help us all be living in truth. We may not have much time to get real Christianity happening.
Let us be ONE in Christ!
Then the world will know.
jeff fenske