The CHIEF PILLAR of Eternal Security (OSAS) Toppled – John 10:27-29! — "Only those who are hearing and following Christ right now are his sheep"

Posted with permission from: Eternal Security: A Biblical Perspective

Pillar One

My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me: And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand. My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father’s hand. John 10:27-29.

With a small amount of scholarship, this verse can be cleared up. In the Greek text, the hearing and following are in the present tense. What does this mean? It means that only those who are hearing and following Christ right now are his sheep. Those that are living in a state of continual sin are not his sheep because they are neither hearing nor following Jesus. Who are secure? The sheep. Who cannot be snatched (taken away by force)? The sheep. Who is Jesus giving (present tense) eternal life? Those who are sheep. Who are the sheep? Who shall never perish? Who is Christ giving eternal life? Only those who are hearing and following right now! Whom do Jesus and the Father protect in their hands? Not the one who heard and followed, but only those who are actively believing now with an obedient faith. Is this not works? No! It is genuine faith! This is true biblical security.

The term “snatch” means to take by force. This promise guarantees that the devil cannot remove the believer (present tense) from the hand of God. This safety is only from forces outside the believer and God Himself. A backslider removes himself from the promises of safety and security. He is not removed against his own will.

Now, looking at this passage in its plain and obvious meaning, it renders no credence to the theory of unconditional eternal security. The chief pillar has fallen! The remaining seven groan under the weight to save this failed doctrine.

Read Entire Article: “The Eight Pillars of Eternal Security or The Toppling of an Idol,” By Jeff Paton
Related:
Who-Goes-To-Heaven Scriptures — Narrow is the Way | Who are the Children of God?
All of my “Who Goes to Heaven” Posts

26 thoughts on “The CHIEF PILLAR of Eternal Security (OSAS) Toppled – John 10:27-29! — "Only those who are hearing and following Christ right now are his sheep"

  1. Perhaps you should study the parable about the LOST Sheep and the Lost coin.
    There will also be a ressurection of the just and the unjust. I doubt wether the lost will be ressurected
    just to be told they are doomed or lost.

  2. Of the list of passages that teach the eternal security of the believer (or seem to teach such if you believe that notion is mistaken), the best known passage is probably John 10:27-29. There is indeed no mistake regarding Christ’s promise:
    My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me; and I give eternal life to them, and they will never perish; and no one will snatch them out of My hand. My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father’s hand.
    The statement seems pretty straightforward. ‘The sheep’ of Jesus hear his voice, know Him, and follow Him. Jesus gives His sheep eternal life, they shall never perish, and nobody is able to snatch the sheep out of the hand of Jesus. Just prior to another one of His Deity claims, Jesus tells us that nobody can snatch the sheep out of the Father’s hand, either.
    But for those who believe a Christian can lose his salvation – can fall from grace – there must be a reinterpretation. This is usually done by focusing on verb tense and claiming the promise is conditional. Is such a view warranted by the text?
    For example, an Internet blogger named Jeff Fenske came up with the following argument:
    With a small amount of scholarship, this verse can be cleared up. In the Greek text, the hearing and following are in the present tense. What does this mean? It means that only those who are hearing and following Christ right now are his sheep. Those that are living in a state of continual sin are not his sheep because they are neither hearing nor following Jesus. Who are secure? The sheep. Who cannot be snatched (taken away by force)? The sheep. Who is Jesus giving (present tense) eternal life? Those who are sheep. Who are the sheep? Who shall never perish? Who is Christ giving eternal life? Only those who are hearing and following right now! Whom do Jesus and the Father protect in their hands? Not the one who heard and followed, but only those who are actively believing now with an obedient faith. Is this not works? No! It is genuine faith! This is true biblical security.
    The term “snatch” means to take by force. This promise guarantees that the devil cannot remove the believer (present tense) from the hand of God. This safety is only from forces outside the believer and God Himself. A backslider removes himself from the promises of safety and security. He is not removed against his own will.
    Now, looking at this passage in its plain and obvious meaning, it renders no credence to the theory of unconditional eternal security. The chief pillar has fallen! The remaining seven groan under the weight to save this failed doctrine.
    Another poster named Jeff Paton gives us what he claims are ‘200 reasons why you should not believe in eternal security.’ Calvary Center also views the passage as ‘conditional.’
    In short, the objections to this passage rely upon the notion that this promise of Jesus’ was conditional.
    A CLOSER LOOK
    I hope you paid attention when I quoted Jeff Fenske’s argument because he left out one VERY IMPORTANT detail: how did the sheep get into Jesus’ hand in the first place? The text tells us very clearly: MY FATHER, who has given them to me. Fenske left out yet another detail: what did Jesus give His sheep? Eternal life. Not the potential to have eternal life, but eternal life itself. How can eternal life be anything less than eternal?
    Fenske’s argument, though, is worth examining to see if it is anywhere near as ‘scholarly’ as he alleges. Dan Corner makes the same argument (see objection #1). Here, in essence, is what they are saying: since the verbs ‘hear’ and ‘follow’ are in the present tense, it refers to ‘continuous action,’ meaning that only those who AT PRESENT ‘hear’ and ‘follow’ him (which for some reason they always tie to doing good works) are saved.
    Corner and Fenske are right on one count but wrong on almost every other count. The verbs are, indeed, in the present tense. (Corner erroneously refers to it as ‘the present indicative active’ when every first-year Greek student knows that the voice (active) ALWAYS PRECEDES the mood (indicative) in description; Corner only demonstrates his lack of knowledge of the Greek language by his terminology). But they fail to consider a number of problems that they know most laypersons will not throw their way.
    1) There is MORE THAN ONE type of present tense.
    Corner and Fenske seem to be unaware that the present tense may be categorized into three large groups: narrow-band, broad-band, and special usage (Wallace, 516). Under each of these three categories are numerous other categories of TYPES of present tense verbs. These include the punctiliar present (Mark 2:5), the iterative present (Matt. 7:7), and gnomic present (John 3:8). These three are only examples of some dozen or so different types of present tenses. And while they are correct that some present tense verbs may refer to right now, many of them do not.
    Let’s apply their logic to one example to show the argumentive farce:
    Luke 18:12
    “I fast twice a week.”
    Now let’s note that ‘fast’ is a present active indicative verb. According to Corner and Fenske, this means ‘continuous action.’ So what this passage tells us – if these two are consistent – is that the Pharisee who said this is ‘fasting right now.’ But if he were fasting right now, he wouldn’t be fasting twice a week, would he? He would be on a perpetual fast (and might I say, rather hungry). No, the present tense is not a sufficient ground to make this case, particularly when there are other problems with their presentation.
    2) There is no conditional clause in the Greek.
    This does not necessarily rule it out since there are both formal and informal conditions in the Greek language, but it does make the argument harder to substantiate. Jesus is stating a FACT about the sheep – that they know and follow Him – not that they MAY follow him (which is the translation mandated if indeed this is a conditional promise.
    3) The verb is in the indicative mood, which argues AGAINST the conditional claim.
    There are four moods in the Greek language: indicative, imperative, optative and subjunctive (not including participle as a mood since most grammarians do not). Although this is not fully accurate, the moods may be understood with what they basically say.
    Indicative mood is the mood of the presentation of certainty. It presents something as REAL and accurate from the standpoint of the speaker. It does not mean everything in the mood is true – lies are stated in the indicative mood, but it gives a presentation of certainty. Basically, it is what IS. The subjunctive mood indicates what MAY be. The imperative is the mood of command or ‘what SHOULD be.’ The optative mood tells us what COULD be.
    Jesus’ statement is in the indicative mood – indicating certainty from his point of view.
    4) Every view that says this must be present tense following equivocates and instead of saying ‘single sin’ instead tells us ‘many sins.’
    And this is seen in Fenske’s very argument. Note what he says: Those that are living in a state of continual sin are not his sheep because they are neither hearing nor following Jesus. So what then, Mr. Fenske, about those who are committing occasional sins? And what exactly do you mean when you say ‘continual sin?’ How many sins must I commit for it to be considered ‘continual sin?’
    Amazingly enough, I’ve been asking for 20 years and never had a single person answer that question with any degree of specificity. The fact is that to hold the ‘fall from grace’ view, one must not only read into the text, he must also ignore the text, particularly the part about the Father giving the sheep to Jesus.
    5. The defense that claims a man may remove himself from God’s hand not only makes Jesus Christ a liar, but it is also based upon a faulty view of salvation.
    I first became familiar with this argument in 1990 when Joe Shane, leader of the East Columbus Church of Christ (Mississippi) presented this argument in a weekly series of articles in the Commercial Dispatch. The view basically says – as does Fenske, Corner, and all others who think you can lose your salvation – this: the devil cannot reach into God’s hand and pull you out but YOU ON YOUR OWN can pull yourself out if you choose on your own to quit following Jesus.
    But does the text say that? No, it does not. It says NOBODY can snatch the believer out of Jesus’ hand. To say – as these folks do – that this somehow opens up the believer to depart Christ’s hand on his own raises a different series of questions that must be considered. Those who argue this way insist man has free will. But how did they get in Jesus’ hand in the first place? The Father put them there – a fact that every person who denies eternal security passes over. Jesus compares the knowledge of the sheep for Him with the knowledge of Him for the Father (John 10:14-15). The very next verse makes it clear that JESUS is the one who brings the sheep to Himself (John 10:16).
    This is no small problem because most people who argue against eternal security start from the wrong starting point: they start with man’s free will as opposed to God’s decree. But the truth of the matter is this: those who say that man can snatch himself out of Christ’s hand have ADDED to his words in violation of His command to not do so.
    CONCLUSION
    The promise is simple: Jesus lays down His life for the sheep. Those who do not believe (John 10:26) do not believe BECAUSE they are not His sheep. ‘Hearing’ and ‘following’ in verse 27 are synonymous with believing from verse 26. The believer is secure in the hands of Christ and the Father and nobody can take them out.
    Despite the claims of Jeff Fenske, the pillar still stands.

  3. Jeff Fenske

    Dear Maestroh,
    Actually, I didn’t write this article. And I posted this with permission of the author, giving links above and below the article. I’ve made these links even clearer, now.
    I’ll respond later, unless someone else does in the meantime.
    Jeff Fenske

  4. JP

    [Editors note: this is a response to Maestroh’s comment #2 by the actual author of the article. I’ve indented the portions of Maestroh’s comment that JP quotes in order for clarity. Thanks so much, JP!]

    Of the list of passages that teach the eternal security of the believer (or seem to teach such if you believe that notion is mistaken), the best known passage is probably John 10:27-29. There is indeed no mistake regarding Christ’s promise:
    My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me; and I give eternal life to them, and they will never perish; and no one will snatch them out of My hand. My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father’s hand.
    The statement seems pretty straightforward. ‘The sheep’ of Jesus hear his voice, know Him, and follow Him. Jesus gives His sheep eternal life, they shall never perish, and nobody is able to snatch the sheep out of the hand of Jesus. Just prior to another one of His Deity claims, Jesus tells us that nobody can snatch the sheep out of the Father’s hand, either.
    But for those who believe a Christian can lose his salvation – can fall from grace – there must be a reinterpretation. This is usually done by focusing on verb tense and claiming the promise is conditional. Is such a view warranted by the text?

    The passage is quite straightforward, only the sheep are given everlasting life, and Jesus tells who the sheep are; those that hear and follow Him. If someone does not hear and follow, they are not a sheep.
    The suggestion that “there must be a reinterpretation” in order to see the condition of the passage asserts that only those that are presently hearing and following Christ, is nothing but a false assertion. Just as the promise states the condition of hearing and following, the opposite must also be true; if someone is not hearing and following, they are not sheep. This would apply to those that never followed, or those that cease to hear and follow. One thing is plain, there is a condition. It is a reinterpretation to pretend that the condition does not exist. It is to read the assumption that one cannot lose their salvation into the passage, and to nullify the condition to mean “if someone heard and followed Me, they are my sheep whether they hear or follow me anymore.”

    A CLOSER LOOK
    I hope you paid attention when I quoted Jeff Fenske’s argument because he left out one VERY IMPORTANT detail: how did the sheep get into Jesus’ hand in the first place? The text tells us very clearly: MY FATHER, who has given them to me.

    The issue of the Father having “given them’ to Jesus is irrelevant to OSAS or Non-OSAS. The intent and scope of the article was not to give a full commentary on how people come to Christ, but the false assertion that it teaches OSAS.

    What did Jesus give His sheep? Eternal life. Not the potential to have eternal life, but eternal life itself. How can eternal life be anything less than eternal?

    When does He “give to them” everlasting life? Eternal life was eternal before anyone ever had it. Does it make that life any less eternal? If anyone forfeited it, would it be any less eternal? Of course not! If I posses an eternal pearl of great price, and I squander it by throwing it away, it still remains eternal whether I posses it or not. It would have been eternal before I had it, and eternal after I cast it away. The passage NEVER states that anyone has an eternal possession on that life. The OSAS advocate twists the Scripture to makes the quality of the life to be an eternal possession, instead of where Jesus placed the emphasis, on the eternal nature of that life. There is no eternal or unforfeitable possession of life stated in all of Scripture to anyone this side of heaven.

    Here, in essence, is what they are saying: since the verbs ‘hear’ and ‘follow’ are in the present tense, it refers to ‘continuous action,’ meaning that only those who AT PRESENT ‘hear’ and ‘follow’ him (which for some reason they always tie to doing good works) are saved.

    The straw-man of “good works” is nowhere stated or implied in the argument. If belief is required in order to get “saved,” then it is just as much a “works salvation” as those who would insist that that condition of faith is required for salvation at all stages of salvation.

    Corner and Fenske are right on one count but wrong on almost every other count. The verbs are, indeed, in the present tense. (Corner erroneously refers to it as ‘the present indicative active’ when every first-year Greek student knows that the voice (active) ALWAYS PRECEDES the mood (indicative) in description; Corner only demonstrates his lack of knowledge of the Greek language by his terminology). But they fail to consider a number of problems that they know most laypersons will not throw their way.

    The argument whether Corner is a poor Greek scholar is irrelevant; what matters is, is it true? Ad Hominem arguments add nothing to the exposition of the passage.

    1) There is MORE THAN ONE type of present tense.
    Corner and Fenske seem to be unaware that the present tense may be categorized into three large groups: narrow-band, broad-band, and special usage (Wallace, 516). Under each of these three categories are numerous other categories of TYPES of present tense verbs. These include the punctiliar present (Mark 2:5), the iterative present (Matt. 7:7), and gnomic present (John 3:8). These three are only examples of some dozen or so different types of present tenses. And while they are correct that some present tense verbs may refer to right now, many of them do not.

    No one really cares how many variances in the present tense that there are, or what other passages may say! What does John’s 10: 27 present tense mean? You are clouding the issue where there is no fog. The present indicative active “asserts something which is occurring while the speaker is making the statement” (Zodihiates 857). “Action as continuous. Here the principle tense is the present, which in the indicative is used primarily of present time (Dana and Mantly 178). So, Greek Scholarship is in agreement as to what the normative, most common, normal, and primary meaning is “something that is occurring right now,” one has little exegetical and linguistic ground in which to argue otherwise. One must prove the assertion that the context clearly leads us away to some obscure or rare exception of this rule, other than the mere observation that exceptions to the rule exists! It is uncanny that God, through the inspiration of the Spirit, uses the present tense or “believe” as the condition of final salvation in every case! Are we to suggest that in every case we must stretch the meaning to me the most obscure and likely meaning instead of the most likely?

    Let’s apply their logic to one example to show the argumentive farce:
    Luke 18:12
    “I fast twice a week.”
    Now let’s note that ‘fast’ is a present active indicative verb. According to Corner and Fenske, this means ‘continuous action.’ So what this passage tells us – if these two are consistent – is that the Pharisee who said this is ‘fasting right now.’ But if he were fasting right now, he wouldn’t be fasting twice a week, would he? He would be on a perpetual fast (and might I say, rather hungry). No, the present tense is not a sufficient ground to make this case, particularly when there are other problems with their presentation.

    You create a false dilemma where there is none. First, it is not relevant to the passage in question. As I have stated already, pointing out an exception will not justify its application in the case of John 10.
    Allow me to note that it is poor exegesis to rely on a definition alone, such as the word “eternal” apart from its context, and build a tower of presumption upon it as you do. In Luke 18:12 we do see something within the context that drives the meaning and application of the present tense. First, the Pharisees in question claimed that they “presently” fast twice a week. It is true that they are doing this presently; there is no doubt. They stated a qualification to the application of the present tense; twice a week. It does not change the primary meaning of the Greek in the least. We do not need to get into rationalization to explain it; it is plain to see that they stated the frequency and the currency. I know that you are trying to make it appear to be stupid to believe that they were “present tense” fasting all the time. You ignore the context in order to imply that it would be ignorant to apply a natural understanding of the present tense in John 10. Luke 18:12 has nothing to do with John 10. You have proved nothing by appealing to it.

    Jesus is stating a FACT about the sheep – that they know and follow Him – not that they MAY follow him (which is the translation mandated if indeed this is a conditional promise.

    But the truth of the present tense still remains! Even if Jesus states it as a FACT that sheep hear and follow, it is clear that if you ever cease to hear and follow that you are not a sheep! The same dilemma continues to be an issue and Eternal Security is proven false!

    The verb is in the indicative mood, which argues AGAINST the conditional claim.
    There are four moods in the Greek language: indicative, imperative, optative and subjunctive (not including participle as a mood since most grammarians do not). Although this is not fully accurate, the moods may be understood with what they basically say.
    Indicative mood is the mood of the presentation of certainty. It presents something as REAL and accurate from the standpoint of the speaker. It does not mean everything in the mood is true – lies are stated in the indicative mood, but it gives a presentation of certainty. Basically, it is what IS. The subjunctive mood indicates what MAY be. The imperative is the mood of command or ‘what SHOULD be.’ The optative mood tells us what COULD be.
    Jesus’ statement is in the indicative mood – indicating certainty from his point of view.

    It IS a FACT that only the sheep are given eternal life, and that only those that presently hear and follow are sheep. The indicative mood does nothing to remove the condition, but sets the condition as a certainty! It is a certainty that if you do not presently hear and follow Jesus, He does not present indicative active, give you everlasting life!

    4) Every view that says this must be present tense following equivocates and instead of saying ’single sin’ instead tells us ‘many sins.’
    Those that are living in a state of continual sin are not his sheep because they are neither hearing nor following Jesus. So what then, Mr. Fenske, about those who are committing occasional sins? And what exactly do you mean when you say ‘continual sin?’ How many sins must I commit for it to be considered ‘continual sin?’

    I will chase the red herring a bit to satisfy the question. I would say that sin is unbelief, and is the antithesis to hearing and believing. I don’t “equivocate” the issue, but would say that there is a difference between one who uses a doctrine of security for license, and the person who stumbles and repents. The unrepentant are not hearing and believing. That is why the issue of “continual sin” is brought in, because the doctrine of Eternal Security must accept that a person can remain in unrepentance and still be saved, or Eternal security is not true. The scope of the argument does not deal with the issue of disobedience and repentance, just that one must, as Jesus said, be “hearing and following” Him in order to be a sheep.
    This I understand is to bait the issue to say that it is problematic for anti-eternal Security people since it would imply that one could be a sheep one moment and not the next; be saved on moment and not the next. This is only as absurd as believing that a person can be lost one moment, place their faith in Christ and be saved a micro-second later! If we decide to go there, then we must get into a definition of sin and regeneration. Certainly, any argument will fall short in some people’s eyes because it is not a complete system of theology. Limiting the scope to a narrow issue is not equivocating.

    Amazingly enough, I’ve been asking for 20 years and never had a single person answer that question with any degree of specificity. The fact is that to hold the ‘fall from grace’ view, one must not only read into the text, he must also ignore the text, particularly the part about the Father giving the sheep to Jesus.

    And I have never had anyone show me in 20 years where there is a single statement of Eternal Security in all of Scripture, to include your unconvincing arguments! Eternal Security is no different than atheism; it must be learned. In order to get Eternal security “out of” Scripture, it must be first “read into” Scripture. You must “assume” Eternal security exists before you can contort Scripture to prove it.

    5. The defense that claims a man may remove himself from God’s hand not only makes Jesus Christ a liar, but it is also based upon a faulty view of salvation.

    It is calling Jesus a liar when you deny the obvious intent of the present tense. You are saying that you can “sin and win,” when Scripture consistently tells us that final salvation is conditioned on a present tense faith. I would say that it is you that has a faulty view of salvation; you teach the same lie as the devil told to Eve, “In the day you eat thereof, you shall not surely die!” The same “promise” of Eternal security! The devil has not had to modify the lie since the beginning, and people are still duped to believe him!

    The view basically says – as does Fenske, Corner, and all others who think you can lose your salvation – this: the devil cannot reach into God’s hand and pull you out but YOU ON YOUR OWN can pull yourself out if you choose on your own to quit following Jesus.
    But does the text say that? No, it does not. It says NOBODY can snatch the believer out of Jesus’ hand.

    You are correct that it does not “say” that one can pull themselves out, but yet you ignore what it does say! It states that the no external object can snatch “us.” It in no way can include ourselves. Plain grammar tells us that!
    It does puzzle me that God would be so contradictory to command us to “remain” in Christ; “abide” in Him. “Continue” “Endure” etc. I guess that you must explain those conditions and warning away too!

    To say – as these folks do – that this somehow opens up the believer to depart Christ’s hand on his own raises a different series of questions that must be considered. Those who argue this way insist man has free will. But how did they get in Jesus’ hand in the first place? The Father put them there – a fact that every person who denies eternal security passes over. Jesus compares the knowledge of the sheep for Him with the knowledge of Him for the Father (John 10:14-15). The very next verse makes it clear that JESUS is the one who brings the sheep to Himself (John 10:16).

    Scripture everywhere states the condition of faith. God no more believes for us than He repents for us! What you appear to be contending for is something that is never stated in Scripture; salvation by FATE! The passages you present pose no difficulty to my theology, and are in fact, fully embraced.

    This is no small problem because most people who argue against eternal security start from the wrong starting point: they start with man’s free will as opposed to God’s decree.

    What a laughable contradiction! You embrace a theological fiction; the “God’s decree.” There is no “God’s decree!” If God ever decreed anything, it was not salvation of any individual!, Secondly, most non-Eternal Securists do not start with free-will, but with Free-Grace! The starting point is clearly stated in John 3:16, where salvation id promised to “whosoever will,” not “whosoever must” or those that hit the Lucky Lotto of Fate.

    But the truth of the matter is this: those who say that man can snatch himself out of Christ’s hand have ADDED to his words in violation of His command to not do so.

    And ADDING man to the external force that cannot pluck him out of God’s hands is a distortion of God’s words, and denies the condition of present tense hearing and following Him. The context speaks loudly against Eternal Security!

    CONCLUSION
    The promise is simple: Jesus lays down His life for the sheep. Those who do not believe (John 10:26) do not believe BECAUSE they are not His sheep. ‘Hearing’ and ‘following’ in verse 27 are synonymous with believing from verse 26. The believer is secure in the hands of Christ and the Father and nobody can take them out.

    Nonsense! Jesus finishes His discourse (immediate context) with the words to those that did not believe (were not sheep). You assert that people believe because they are sheep, and those that don’t are not sheep. It would not make any sense for Jesus (God) to appeal to these non-sheep to believe! “If I do not the works of my Father, believe me not. But if I do, though you believe not me, believe the works: that ye may know and believe…” (10:37-38). You wish to deny any free-will, so what would the efforts of Jesus to convince them do for them or for God? Doesn’t Jesus believe that the sheep are fated, and sheep believe? If people are always sheep or goats from eternity, then why don’t all sheep believe the first time they hear the Gospel? Is that not showing that they are not sheep?
    The most natural understanding of the passage is therefore that one becomes a sheep by believing, and that God persuades free men to believe, not against their will, or by coercion.
    Fatalism and Eternal Security makes God’s Word to be contradictory and nonsensical at so many points that I am astonished how so many can pass over the plain truth and miss it!

  5. Lostball

    Jeff, I guess we could debate this with the OSAS crowd till the last day and they still would not be convinced. They love their OSAS doctrine because they are safe in a false security and this way they can continue on with their many excuses for sinning every day. It’s true, OSAS is a license to sin.
    There was no eternal security [OSAS] in the Old Testament for the children of Israel and there is none in the New Testament.
    Question for the OSAS crowd: If there was no eternal security in the Old Testament … then when did God change His mind ??? Please answer that one.
    Ezekiel Chapter 3
    19 Yet if thou warn the wicked, and he turn not from his wickedness, nor from his wicked way, he shall die in his iniquity; but thou hast delivered thy soul.
    20 Again, When a righteous man doth turn from his righteousness, and commit iniquity, and I lay a stumblingblock before him, he shall die: because thou hast not given him warning, he shall die in his sin, and his righteousness which he hath done shall not be remembered; but his blood will I require at thine hand.
    21 Nevertheless if thou warn the righteous man, that the righteous sin not, and he doth not sin, he shall surely live, because he is warned; also thou hast delivered thy soul.
    Ezekiel Chapter 18
    24 But when the righteous turneth away from his righteousness, and committeth iniquity, and doeth according to all the abominations that the wicked man doeth, shall he live? All his righteousness that he hath done shall not be mentioned: in his trespass that he hath trespassed, and in his sin that he hath sinned, in them shall he die.
    25 Yet ye say, The way of the Lord is not equal. Hear now, O house of Israel; Is not my way equal? are not your ways unequal?
    26 When a righteous man turneth away from his righteousness, and committeth iniquity, and dieth in them; for his iniquity that he hath done shall he die.
    27 Again, when the wicked man turneth away from his wickedness that he hath committed, and doeth that which is lawful and right, he shall save his soul alive.
    Now go to Hebrews:
    Jude 1:5  I will therefore put you in remembrance, though ye once knew this, how that the Lord, having saved the people out of the land of Egypt, afterward destroyed them that believed not.
    6  And the angels which kept not their first estate, but left their own habitation, he hath reserved in everlasting chains under darkness unto the judgment of the great day.
    Notice that ALL the Children of Israel were SAVED out of Egypt… but then God destroyed those who did not “continue” in believing.
    OSAS … don’t let pride stand in the way of your learning truth.
    Ego and Pride are the evil twins who stand guard at the door of truth and knowledge.

  6. Lostball

    Let me add this to my previous comments:
    Jude 1:24  Now unto him that is able to keep you from falling, and to present you faultless before the presence of his glory with exceeding joy,
    25  To the only wise God our Saviour, be glory and majesty, dominion and power, both now and ever. Amen.
    God is able to keep us from falling and present us faultless before the presense of His glory ….. and with exceeding joy. If it was impossible for us to fall away from the faith, then why would Gods Word tell us that He is able to keep us from falling? It’s because you can fall from grace.
    OSAS: you can be free from this heretical and soul damning doctrine.
    Friend, you WILL overcome, or be blotted out of the Book of Life.
    Revelation 3:5  He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life, but I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels.

  7. I find it amusing to witness how someone who tells me that my argument is in error because I start with the wrong presuppositions would use Fatalism’s idea of “God’s decrees” as their proof! They use one bad doctrine to support yet another, and in fact, they deny their own doctrine by trying to convince me that I am wrong. They assume that everything is final due to some imagined “Decree” of God, and because of that, man is not free; he is a victim of the god that makes that “Decree.” So, what possible good could come from arguing about it? If Fate can’t be changed, and changing what someone believes can have nothing to do with moving them towards being saved, then isn’t the fact that they argue about it prove that they don’t actually believe it?
    Anytime a Calvinist argues that their doctrines are correct, they are actually testifying that their doctrines are not true! If I am predestined to be an Arminian, what possible good would it do to try to argue that I am wrong? Convincing someone of Fatalism will not save them! If I do not have a free will, then what possible sense can it make to argue with me to change? By responding you only prove that you do not believe that all is set by some mystical “Decree,” and that you believe that I have enough freedom of the will to change what I believe! Shocking! By your own argument you just proved Arminianism!

  8. Richard L. Sypert Jr.

    This is just a note of appreciation to you proponents of this subject and also I am giving much praise to God. I just got the idea tonight to search the web specifically on the subject of ‘Can you lose your salvation’. This was after watching a TV minister that I respect for frequently admonishing christians of the need for obedience to Christ and righteousness, yet he ended his program stating a form of the ‘once saved always saved’ doctrine. This is a doctrine I fervently disbelieve and I have always been frustrated since the OSAS doctrine is one that I can’t find in scripture. To me the ALL of scripture speaks to the fact that our salvation in contingent on repentance from sin and continued striving for obedience to God’s commandments thereafter. However, my beliefs have not obtained much meaningful christian fellowship in my lifetime as most prefer to follow OSAS. So, when I searched tonight and found articles by Jeff Paton and read them I was very blessed. I have abundantly experienced accusations of trying to be right on the subject, when so many pastors and so-called christian authorities disagree with me. But I never hear the subject of OSAS argued with significant scriptural support, when it seems one can endlessly support conditional salvation with the scriptures. SO I am PRAISING GOD that the truth about salvation has such worthy proponents and I will keep this in my prayers. Seem’s to me that a fundamental issue in the debate about OSAS and conditional salvation is whether one can treat be Bible and self-contained and be best interpreter and dictionary for itself. To me the proof of the Holy Spirits authorship of the Bible is that very little outside context is necessary to understand the truthful doctrines of scripture. Like Psalm 119 says ‘the sum of the word is truth’, or Corinthians states ‘line upon line and verse upon verse’, and that we learn spiritual words with spiritual meanings. I believe that we have to treat the Bible as a book written by one author who is the Holy Spirit, and He wrote the Bible so that its doctrines of truth are woven from beginning to end of the scriptures. He develops and reiterates the same truthful themes past boundaries and borders of the different books so that doctrinally the Bible reads as one book. Within this understanding of the structure of the Bible, is the means by which what is written in scripture is uniquely the Word of God, and the particular words of scripture are God Breathed (or directly from God) and therefore cannot be subverted by information outside of scripture. I believe outside context is helpful sometimes in correct interpretation of the words of a particular passage, but I believe any doctrine of truth of the scriptures is so abundantly reiterated through scripture when it is allowed to interpret itself that any need for outside context is eliminated. In the way I am describing, I believe the Bible undoubtedly distinquishes itself as the Word of God because of its internal consistency that any truth is abundantly reiterated from beginning to the end of scriptures. Like with the issue of OSAS versus conditional salvation, truth is established by very abundant scriptural quotation which shows the tread of truth through the word, and truth is not established by man’s opinion or indirect argument. So again, I PRAISE JESUS for what I believe is His specific and only truth about salvation. This being that we are eternally secure in our salvation, IF we continue in the faith grounded and settled.

  9. Mark

    Nonsense! Jesus finishes His discourse (immediate context) with the words to those that did not believe (were not sheep). You assert that people believe because they are sheep, and those that don’t are not sheep. It would not make any sense for Jesus (God) to appeal to these non-sheep to believe! “If I do not the works of my Father, believe me not. But if I do, though you believe not me, believe the works: that ye may know and believe…” (10:37-38). You wish to deny any free-will, so what would the efforts of Jesus to convince them do for them or for God? Doesn’t Jesus believe that the sheep are fated, and sheep believe? If people are always sheep or goats from eternity, then why don’t all sheep believe the first time they hear the Gospel? Is that not showing that they are not sheep?
    The most natural understanding of the passage is therefore that one becomes a sheep by believing, and that God persuades free men to believe, not against their will, or by coercion.
    Fatalism and Eternal Security makes God’s Word to be contradictory and nonsensical at so many points that I am astonished how so many can pass over the plain truth and miss it!
    ————————————————————————————
    it’s true JP, it’s nonsense to us people when we think of God’s decree. We tend to always seek our own will to decide than God to choose what’s best for us. In the first place, man is incapable to do the will of God because our nature is marred by sin. All our faculty tend to go against the will of God. It means we are incapable to choose the will of God because we are dead in our sin as Ephesians 2 says. Can a dead person respond? unless you are quickened by the Spirit, that’s the only time you can respond to the Father’s call through the Gospel and see the beauty of Christ to put your trust in him and believe Him. If you say of free will as how you could choose morally and socially, yes you can still do that even your’e not still a believer but when it comes to spiritual things, you have to be born again first before you can see and enter into the kingdom of God. Seeing and entering is responding to God’s call. I don’t think that it is coercion or force. We believe God is sovereign in everything here in the universe but when it comes to salvation, man don’t want God to be fully sovereign. Man want to decide on his own and his own effort. That’s inconsistency. If we pray for God to save a love one or friend, aren’t that a sign we submit to God that He is sovereign enough to save a person not on on person’s work? Who saves? God. Who decides whom to save? The Savior, because He is God, not man. Nonetheless, God calls everyone to repent, as a sign of His love for everyone that should cause us to repentance.

  10. post-tribber

    Mastroe, you claim we can’t lose our salvation per John 10 because Jesus’ sheep were “given him” “by the father.”
    Well, the Father gave Jesus Judas, and he lost Judas. In fact, Jesus prays about that, that he had not lost any that were given him but one.
    So the fact that the father draws us to the son does not mean that once he has led us there that we are chained and robotized into following Jesus, that we lose our ability to choose. You advocate Calvinism here. That’s all it is, just fatalism, Calvinism, License to Sin, give up and relax and take it easy and don’t worry, be happy, all your sins are paid for anyway so might as well go ahead and do them.
    Just remember who controls the seminaries and the media megachurch. (Hint, it’s not Christians).
    Just remember who is the god of this world. (Hint, it’s not Jesus).
    Just remember where Jesus’ kingdom is. (Hint, it’s not here).
    Just remember this life is a test. We are here for a reason. We are not picked out of a hat for no special reason other than God’s amusement, and we’re not here to live however the wind blows us and blame it all on God, and think that Judgment Day is just some meaningless stage act.
    When is the last time you read the words in red? Jesus did walk among us for 33 years and his words are recorded in the gospels. You should read them. Read Jesus’ words on what he will say to people on Judgment Day. Read his parables. All he did was warn, warn, warn about Hell and what would cause people to go there. He was mostly always warning his own disciples. Why did he do that if they were unconditionally saved.
    Why did Judas fall away? The Bible says Judas is in Hell. That means at least one of Jesus’ own disciples fell away, and John 6:66 says a lot of other disciples also fell away.
    Jesus’ disciples gave up everything to follow him, and none of us have done that, and yet many of these same people who gave up everything to follow Jesus we know ended up falling away.
    Demas fell away. Demas was Paul’s fellow laborer, an evangelist who travelled all over with Paul starting churches and preaching Jesus. But “Demas loved this present world” and quit the ministry.
    Many other examples in scripture also — ie 5 of the 10 betrothed virgins, the lazy servant, the backslidden servant, the first 3 examples in the parable of the sower, and Hymaneous and Aleaxander, the foolish widows, Annanias and Sophira, many more.
    Jesus said most people will go to Hell.
    Be warned. There are many scriptures that say we must overcome (sin) and endure to the end and “run the race that’s set before us” to keep our eyes on the prize and to run at least as hard as some athlete does for a stupid trophy.

    1. Jeff Fenske

      Thanks post-tribber!
      I can use the help!
      I know Dan Corner uses the Judas example a lot, but I haven’t so far because people will just say Judas wasn’t technically in the new covenant, which is true (didn’t start until after Jesus died and rose from the dead and sent the Holy Spirit).
      What you say is good though. It definitely supports the believers’ conditional security. It’s just not irrefutable like so many of the Scriptures I use in Who-Goes-To-Heaven Scriptures — Narrow is the Way | Who are the Chidren of God?
      I find the bridegroom parable interesting: 10 virgins but only 5 had oil in their lamps. 1/2 weren’t ready. But 50% were, which is way better than what we have now, if this is referring to salvation and the virgins mean born-again (those betrothed to be the bride of Christ): How Many Will Be in Heaven? How Many Find the WAY? Only 1 in 40 — 2.5%?!!
      But maybe ‘virgins’ means more than born-again. But if ‘virgins’ does just mean born-again, then 1/2 of the people who are truly born-again go to heaven, and a serious revival took place in which many people repented and got right with God and their neighbors. Yeah!!!
      I’m focusing on the revival — ONE with Christ and each other happening real soon!
      And this once-saved-always-saved heresy is the biggest deception that is keeping real Christianity from happening in the hearts of men.
      Jeff : )

  11. post-tribber

    Jesus taught to ask for the Holy Spirit and said God would give it to those who asked. The people at Pentacost were told to wait for an annointing for service, which is different. There were 2 Pentacosts, one in Acts 4 as well, the same infilling to the same people. We are commanded to be filled and refilled.
    Jesus told the Woman at the Well that if she believed on him that rivers of water would flow from her belly NOW.
    Jesus told Peter that his confession that Jesus was the Christ was what Jesus would build his church on.
    The blood of Jesus cleanses us from all sin — those in the past and those in the future, and those in the present when Jesus walked among us. His sacrifice is all sufficient. Hebrews says that blood of bulls and goats can never take away sin.
    If you are talking about the promise to the Israelites to possess the land of canaan — that’s a worldly covenant, unrelated to what scripture is all about, which is the salvation of our souls and that we might escape Hell. That’s all Jesus ever talked about — never talked about possessing any city or any land here on this earth. Who cares about this place? We are strangers passing through and we’re told not to love this world or what’s in it.
    Paul said “Here, we have no continuing city.” We look to a New Jerusalem coming down from Heaven, not some place where the Luciferians are salivating over to rebuild Solomon’s Temple and install their antichrist world dictator.
    Shame, shame on those pseudo-Christians as Texe Marrs refers to them, who have their eyes on “Sodom and Egypt” as the Bible refers to Jerusalem in the last days.

    1. Jeff Fenske

      Post-tribber,
      I like Texe, started listening to, watching and reading his material in the mid-90s. He has a good handle on secret societies and the New World Order. I’ve learned a lot from him. But when it comes to the Bible, it seems that there are key things he doesn’t understand. And he’s fixated on the Jews. It’s one thing to know what’s going on and to inform people, but in the recent years, he’s turned me off because of his too narrow focus. I still check his latest posts out on occasion.
      As far as when the Holy Spirit was given. Much of John 14-16 is Jesus telling the disciples that it’s better for Him to leave because He ~”won’t leave them as orphans.” He’s going to send the Holy Spirit ~”to lead them into all truth.” Without the Holy Spirit inside of them, they had difficulty understanding what He was saying. So it was actually better that He leave them (that’s what He said), because with the Holy Spirit inside they could finally understand the things that had confused them while with Jesus.
      It’s that big of a deal. The Holy Spirit coming and staying at Pentecost was huge.
      And after He died, they somewhat fearfully huddled in a room until the Holy Spirit did come (Acts 2). They could have asked all they wanted. God decided when to send the Holy Spirit, not them.
      And then they were bold from then on — Holy Spirit empowered and Holy Spirit led. This was a one-time event.
      Jesus says this in Luke 24:

      36 As they said these things, Jesus himself stood among them, and said to them, “Peace be to you.” 37 But they were terrified and filled with fear, and supposed that they had seen a spirit. 38 He said to them, “Why are you troubled? Why do doubts arise in your hearts? 39 See my hands and my feet, that it is truly me. Touch me and see, for a spirit doesn’t have flesh and bones, as you see that I have.” 40 When he had said this, he showed them his hands and his feet. 41 While they still didn’t believe for joy, and wondered, he said to them, “Do you have anything here to eat?” 42 They gave him a piece of a broiled fish and some honeycomb. 43 He took them, and ate in front of them.

      44 He said to them, “This is what I told you, while I was still with you, that all things which are written in the law of Moses, the prophets, and the psalms, concerning me must be fulfilled.” 45 Then he opened their minds [temporary opening, not like when they permanently got the Holy Spirit], that they might understand the Scriptures. 46 He said to them, “Thus it is written, and thus it was necessary for the Christ to suffer and to rise from the dead the third day, 47 and that repentance and remission of sins should be preached in his name to all the nations, beginning at Jerusalem. 48 You are witnesses of these things. 49 Behold, I send forth the promise of my Father on you. But wait [KJV says ‘tarry’] in the city of Jerusalem until you are clothed with power from on high.”

      50 He led them out as far as Bethany, and he lifted up his hands, and blessed them. 51 It happened, while he blessed them, that he withdrew from them, and was carried up into heaven. 52 They worshiped him [if Jesus was just a man He wouldn’t accept worship, Jehovah Witnesses], and returned to Jerusalem with great joy, 53 and were continually in the temple, praising and blessing God. Amen.

      And when Jesus died on the cross, the veil was rent in the temple, between the Holy Place and the Holy of Holies (if I remember correctly), which signifies that we can now go to God directly through Jesus, who is our High Priest (Hebrews talks about this a lot). That’s why it’s totally unbiblical for Catholicism to ordain men as priests. They’re putting themselves in a weird and unbiblical position, ripe for demon inhabitation in a big way.
      This is why tithing is no longer Biblical, because it’s part of the old covenant law, for the priests to get sustenance to operate before the Holy Spirit was given, what Hebrews says is a better way. Chapter 7:

      4 Now consider how great this man was, to whom even Abraham, the patriarch, gave a tenth out of the best spoils. 5 They indeed of the sons of Levi who receive the priest’s office have a commandment to take tithes of the people according to the law, that is, of their brothers, though these have come out of the body of Abraham, 6 but he whose genealogy is not counted from them has accepted tithes from Abraham, and has blessed him who has the promises. 7 But without any dispute the lesser is blessed by the greater. 8 Here people who die receive tithes, but there one receives tithes of whom it is testified that he lives. 9 We can say that through Abraham even Levi, who receives tithes, has paid tithes, 10 for he was yet in the body of his father when Melchizedek met him.

      11 Now if there was perfection through the Levitical priesthood (for under it the people have received the law), what further need was there for another priest to arise after the order of Melchizedek, and not be called after the order of Aaron? 12 For the priesthood being changed, there is of necessity a change made also in the law. 13 For he of whom these things are said belongs to another tribe, from which no one has officiated at the altar. 14 For it is evident that our Lord has sprung out of Judah, about which tribe Moses spoke nothing concerning priesthood. 15 This is yet more abundantly evident, if after the likeness of Melchizedek there arises another priest, 16 who has been made, not after the law of a fleshly commandment, but after the power of an endless life:

      17 for it is testified, “You [Jesus] are a priest forever, according to the order of Melchizedek.”

      18 For there is an annulling of a foregoing commandment because of its weakness and uselessness 19 (for the law made nothing perfect), and a bringing in of a better hope, through which we draw near to God [now we can be led by the Holy Spirit for the “perfecting of the saints”]. 20 Inasmuch as he was not made priest without the taking of an oath

      21 (for they indeed have been made priests without an oath), but he with an oath by him that says of him, “The Lord swore and will not change his mind, ‘You are a priest forever, according to the order of Melchizedek.'”

      22 By so much, Jesus has become the collateral of a better covenant.

      23 Many, indeed, have been made priests, because they are hindered from continuing by death. 24 But he, because he lives forever, has his priesthood unchangeable. 25 Therefore he is also able to save to the uttermost those who draw near to God through him, seeing that he lives forever to make intercession for them.

      26 For such a high priest was fitting for us: holy, guiltless, undefiled, separated from sinners, and made higher than the heavens; 27 who doesn’t need, like those high priests, to offer up sacrifices daily, first for his own sins, and then for the sins of the people. For he did this once for all, when he offered up himself. 28 For the law appoints men as high priests who have weakness, but the word of the oath which came after the law appoints a Son forever who has been perfected.

      When Jesus died, the veil of the temple was rent, through which the High Priest would sprinkle offerings onto the mercy seat to atone for the sins of the people.
      Now Jesus’ blood was sprinkled on the mercy seat (see Ron Wyatt’s Ark of the Covenant videos). It was then a freaky time until the Holy Spirit came on Pentecost. And then they were on Cloud 9. And we should be too.
      But we have the old guard who even try to prove from 1 Cor. 13 that we shouldn’t even speak in tongues — when 1 Cor. 13 was talking about when we go to heaven, “when we know fully even as we are fully known.”
      Speaking in tongues is one of the signs that should follow believers according to the last chapter of Mark. I have a number of posts on speaking in tongues under its own category.
      I believe praying in the Spirit is probably the greatest way to deal with evil spirits without having to know exactly what is going on — without having to understand or see what the evil spirits are up to.
      Pastors who teach against tongues are unbiblical and often rebellious. And they are certainly disqualified to lead because overseers must be apt to teach (Paul’s elders’ qualifications in Titus and 1 Timothy), and using 1 Cor. 13 so obviously out of context shows how deceived they are and incapable of discerning what is true in the written word.
      Paul said “those who are led by the Spirit are the sons of God.” Many pastors don’t have a clue as to what this really means because they aren’t Holy Spirit led.
      And almost every pastor (charismatic or not) do not teach as normal the scriptures I have listed in my header for this site. Their goals are sub-biblical, and their teaching is usually unbiblical in significant ways.
      Doctrine is super important to get us finally on the same page: one with each other in Christ.
      “Then the world will know.” (John 17)
      Now, they smell a rat, rightfully so.
      We can overcome, and good things will happen no matter what comes down if we’re abiding together in Christ.
      “Be filled with the Spirit” – Paul.
      Let’s be ONE!
      Rock ‘n Roll when we’re in Him!!
      We’re not supposed to be floundering. That’s what the disciples were doing in the room before the Holy Spirit came. And never again.
      1 John 2:

      26 These things I have written to you concerning those who would lead you astray. 27 As for you, the anointing which you received from him remains in you, and you don’t need for anyone to teach you. But as his anointing teaches you concerning all things, and is true, and is no lie, and even as it taught you, you will remain in him.

      28 Now, little children, remain in him, that when he appears, we may have boldness, and not be ashamed before him at his coming. 29 If you know that he is righteous, you know that everyone who practices righteousness is born of him.

      Probably the majority of pastors don’t understand this. And without the Holy Spirit directing them daily, they get off track, often ending up pursuing tangents, instead of what they’re specifically called to do within the 2 Greatest Commandments, which are all about loving God with everything and all of our neighbors as ourselves.
      And the Holy Spirit enables us to even love our enemies. Look at the difference in Peter, before and after Pentecost, for example.
      We’re supposed to be known for our love, not a clanging gong, which is what many preachers sound like.

      Reading the Bible On Your Knees

      Let Us Be ONE, Part 22 of 33

      Reading the Bible…On Your Knees

      It’s easy; that simple. It doesn’t take a genius to understand. It takes humility. It takes reading the Bible one more time, this time on your knees, in the kitchen, or wherever you study, but on your knees, deep inside obeying, ready to see what is inside My book that I’ve donated to My body—you. See it give you life, but don’t look back to what you’ve learned it should say. Listen to Me lead you into repentance, into holy living. Let it come alive in your thinking. Let it fill you with life.

      Cool, huh?
      Jeff : )

  12. post-tribber

    Pentecost was waiting for an annointing for service. That’s what it specifically says in the scripture. Then next chapter, the same exact people have the same exact event happen again, the mighty wind and they get filled again.
    They already had the Holy Spirit. The praying and laying on of hands is for annointing for service and boldness. But the Holy Spirit falls on all those who believe, and Jesus said to ask and we’d receive. He didn’t tell the disciples to wait until he had left.
    The Bible speaks of seven spirits of God. Maybe God has more than one spirit? I don’t know. But Pentecost was to wait for POWER for service.
    Read of the SECOND PENTECOST in Acts 4:31 And when they had prayed, the place was shaken where they were assembled together; and they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and they spake the word of God with boldness.
    32 And the multitude of them that believed were of one heart and of one soul: neither said any of them that aught of the things which he possessed was his own; but they had all things common.
    33 And with great power gave the apostles witness of he resurrection of the Lord Jesus: and great grace was upon them all.
    34 Neither was there any among them that lacked: for as many as were possessors of lands or houses sold them, and brought ht prices of hte tings that were sold,
    35 And laid them down at the apostles’ feet: and distribution was made unto every man according as he had need.
    In the FIRST PENTECOST Acts 1:8 But ye shall receive POWER after that the Holy Ghost is come upon you: and ye shall be witnesses unto me both in Jerusalem and in all Judaea, and in Samaria and unto the uttermost part of the earth. (Great Commission)
    Acts 1:15 Peter stood up to speak …(the number was 120)
    15 Men and brethren, this scripture must needs have been fulfilled, which the Holy Ghost by the mouth of David spake before concerning Judas, which was made to them that took Jesus. etcetera
    Acts 2: And when the day of Pentecost was FULLY COME, they were all with one accord in one place.
    2 And suddenly there came a sound from heaven as of a rushing mighty wind, and it filled all the house where they were sitting.
    3 And there appeared unto them cloven tongues as of fire, and it sat upon each of them.
    4 And they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance.
    5 And there were dwelling at Jerusalem Jews, devout men, out of every nation under heaven.
    6 .. every man heard them speak in their own language (it was a miracle done to the hearers?)
    17 (Peter preaching) And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, that I will pour out my Spirit upon all flesh; and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams:
    18 And on my servants and on my handmaidens I will pour out in those days of my Spirit; and they shall prophesy:
    21 And it shall come to pass that whosoever shall call on the name of the Lord shall be saved.
    44 And all that believed were together, and had all things common; etcetera
    The Baptism of the Holy Spirit is for service, for annointing for service. The people who are so prayed for and annointed already have the Holy Spirit. This is a filling and annointing separate from other kinds of receiving of the Holy Spirit.
    We have to harmonize the scriptures. We can’t isolate scripture and apply it everywhere. We need to take all the scriptures on the Holy Spirit and harmonize. There are a lot of scriptures on the Holy Spirit in the Bible. The people in the Old Testament had the Spirit also.
    Jesus spoke of the Holy Spirit he would send in his place as the “Comforter.” This was special to the disciples who would be missing his literal physical presence.
    I think there is a lot more to the Holy SPirit, and there may be more than one spirit of God, especially since the Bible speaks of the seven spirits of God.
    What do you think? I’m just asking. I’m not dogmatic about this, other than that the waiting in Jerusalem for the Holy Ghost was for POWER for witnessing.
    Jesus did breathe on the disciples before Pentecost, and Jesus also instructed the disciples to ask for the Holy Spirit and that the Father would give the Spirit to those who asked. He didn’t say to wait until later.
    There is more to this story than meets the eye, not claiming I have all the answers.

    1. Jeff Fenske

      Post-tribber,
      I have never heard of this second Pentecost theory in my entire Christian life. I don’t know how one could think such a thing because Peter said to the entire crowd that the filling on the day of Pentecost was what was prophesied by Joel. So that was it.
      And Jesus did say to the disciples to wait in Jerusalem, as I quoted abov: wait [KJV says ‘tarry’] in the city of Jerusalem until you are clothed with power from on high.”
      The second Pentecost you refer to is what we should all be experiencing today, being filled with the Spirit to that degree. This has happened in post-Bible times too. I’ve experienced this to some degree, many times. This is the normal Christian life; though, our false doctrines and lack of righteousness keeps the Holy Spirit away, or some could even die, like Ananias and Sapphira. This is why many were afraid to attend the meetings, Acts says.
      Where do you get the idea that the Comforter, the Holy Spirit was only for the disciples?

      John 14:26 — But the Counselor, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name, he will teach you all things, and will remind you of all that I said to you.

      Why is the Holy Spirit just for the disciples, because the Holy Spirit would remind the disciples of what Jesus had said, and because we haven’t lived with Jesus then the whole thing doesn’t apply to us???
      The Holy Spirit leads us in many ways, and one is reminding us of things already heard, or helps us interpret what we’re experiencing or reading, like the Bible. The disciples couldn’t understand much of what Jesus said, but with the Holy Spirit’s indwelling they finally could — just as we can now understand the “red letters,” as you put it. And John 14-17 are red….
      John 17:

      20 Not for these only do I pray, but for those also who believe in me through their word, 21 that they may all be one; even as you, Father, are in me, and I in you, that they also may be one in us; that the world may believe that you sent me.

      22 The glory which you have given me, I have given to them; that they may be one, even as we are one; 23 I in them, and you in me, that they may be perfected into one; that the world may know that you sent me, and loved them, even as you loved me. 24 Father, I desire that they also whom you have given me be with me where I am, that they may see my glory, which you have given me, for you loved me before the foundation of the world.

      25 Righteous Father, the world hasn’t known you, but I knew you; and these knew that you sent me. 26 I made known to them your name, and will make it known; that the love with which you loved me may be in them, and I in them.”

      The above passage is the theme of this site. Empowered and filled with the Holy Spirit we are to be ONE with each other in Him — “then the world will know.”
      And there are so many other scriptures that show that the Holy Spirit is for everyone who believes, such as Mark 16:17 “These signs will accompany those who believe: in my name they will cast out demons; they will speak with new languages….”
      John wrote to regular believers this in 1 John 2

      26 These things I have written to you concerning those who would lead you astray. 27 As for you, the anointing which you received from him remains in you, and you don’t need for anyone to teach you. But as his anointing teaches you concerning all things, and is true, and is no lie, and even as it taught you, you will remain in him.

      28 Now, little children, remain in him, that when he appears, we may have boldness, and not be ashamed before him at his coming. 29 If you know that he is righteous, you know that everyone who practices righteousness is born of him.

      And all of the examples that we have in the non-red letters in the New Testament….
      I don’t know why you push the red letters on others, by the way. Maybe that’s why you’re having trouble here.
      2 Tim. 3:16 “Every Scripture is God-breathed and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, and for instruction in righteousness….”
      And I don’t know how to interpret the mentioning of 7 spirits in Revelation. The passages that talk about how to relate to the Holy Spirit always mention Him in the singular.
      And narrowing His role to only empowering for witnessing is ignoring much of what the Bible says about the Holy Spirit’s role.

      28 Now, little children, remain in him, that when he appears, we may have boldness, and not be ashamed before him at his coming.

      Jeff

      1. post-tribber

        Well, Acts 4 is indeed identical to the first Pentacost. The same thing happened to the same people.
        As to the Comforter, the creed states that the “Holy Spirit proceeds from the Father and Son and with the Father and Son together is worshipped and glorified.” So you don’t understand the Holy Spirit any more than anybody else does, maybe less than most. The Bible has a lot to say about the Holy Spirit, and you must examine all those scriptures and not pluck one verse here and there and build a religion on it. That is adding to or subtracting from scripture, mishandling the scriptures, very dangerous.
        In fact, Jesus plainly told the 140 to go and wait for power for witnessing. That is what it says. It doesn’t say go and wait to be saved, go and wait and I will come and save your soul. He said go and wait for power for witnessing.
        If you had to take the gospel all over the world to people who had never heard it before, you don’t think you’d need some power for witnessing?
        As far as the Comforter, who would need comforting more than the disciples who had lived with Jesus? Do you not think that Jesus could have been telling them that his own spirit would be with them and this would bring them comfort? We don’t need to be comforted because we didn’t know him in the flesh, eat and sleep and live with Jesus 24/7. If we had, just think how broken hearted and sad we would be not to have him with us.
        I’m not dogmatic about any of this about the Holy Spirit, because I think there’s just a whole lot of things to consider, a lot of scriptures to be taken together, Old and New Testament, and I’m just saying that you should be willing to open your mind to more possibilities about the Holy Spirit and not just agree with what somebody may have told you about it.
        One thing I am dogmatic about, because there is no doubt, that there were 2 Pentacosts, two times that the Holy Spirit came like a wind and shook the building and filled the believers. That is undeniable.

        1. Jeff Fenske

          Post-tribber,
          It seems to me that you don’t understand Sid Roth because you don’t understand the clear teaching about the Holy Spirit in the scriptures and the role He is to play in our lives.
          Maybe it’s because you emphasize the red letters over the rest of the New Testament, as you are telling others to do.
          And I’m not plucking scriptures. I’m showing you a few, saying there are many more, but I don’t have time or the desire to lay out the whole doctrine for you in a comment.
          This is Holy Spirit 101. I don’t know where you got your ideas from. I’ve never heard of such a thing, and I don’t see scriptural support for your thinking at all.
          You don’t seem to be understanding what I’m saying. Perhaps you aren’t born-again, so what Sid and I am saying doesn’t make sense to you, since you don’t have the Holy Spirit, if this is the case.
          jeff

  13. post-tribber

    Re Texe being helpful on the occult but not so good on the scriptures, I think you are wrong. Texe gets people out of Judaizing the scriptures, which was a big problem in Paul’s day and is a big problem today, as you well know.
    Jesus said his kingdom is not of this world. Period, end of story. Christians have no business being consumed with the Jews and Jerusalem.
    Texe’s message this week is on the scripture in Hebrews, Here, we have no continuing city. Great message. The Heavenly Jerusalem is not the same as the one spoken of in Revelation and described in the last days to “Sodom and Egypt” where our Lord was crucified. The Jews are going to rebuild the temple, but this is not according to God’s will. Just because God tells us something is going to happen in the future does not mean it is God’s will that it be so. Not everything that happens is God’s will. God can work all things to good to those who love him, but that is not the same as everything being God’s will.
    We are not a dream in God’s mind.
    That is Calvinism — and Calvinism is pure evil. All five points, pure evil, and pure lies.
    One thing the Calvinists do have straight — they claim all five points rise and fall together, and they are correct. OSAS, their last point, is believed by 99.9 percent of what passes for evangelical Christianity. Calvinism has overtaken the church.
    We need to go back to the Bible with fresh eyes and forget most of what we’ve been taught in church, and start with the words in red in the gospels, the things the church has told us we should stay away from and ignore the words of Jesus he spoke while he walked among us, that these words are “in code” and “to the Jews only.”
    That’s a big lie. Jesus is the same yesterday, today and forever, and God doesn’t have different ways of being saved in different times and seasons. The people of the Old Testament are used as our example, their faith, the same faith we are expected to have if we want to be saved. We are saved by grace THROUGH FAITH. No faith, no salvation.

    1. Jeff Fenske

      Post-tribber,
      I finally listened to all of Texe’s message that you mention above. I couldn’t get through it all in even two sittings. He went on and on, telling stories and saying what? All a person has to listen to is the last 5 minutes. And I knew all of these things 25 years ago.
      To me, Texe is mainly a yesterday’s man; even though, he says at the end of his message: “Tune in each week and discover the power of prophecy.”
      The power of prophecy is what we need to hear now that will take us to the next level in Christ.
      On the other hand, maybe Texe’s target audience still needs to hear these same old things. Maybe he’s today’s man to them.
      One thing that is for sure, Texe sure does like to talk in front of people, and you held that against Shelley Lubben.
      jeff

  14. post-tribber

    Texe was talking about one scripture, just one: Here, we have no continuing city.
    He illustrated that and drove it home.
    I appreciate that. That is a very, extremely important, message to “get.”
    There are a lot of simple messages in the Bible, that can be stated in 1 minute.
    To make them part of your focus and outlook requires meditating on the Word, and a good preacher helps to do that, to expand and make it real.
    Texe is good at that.
    It’s a scripture I won’t forget, and a focus I will keep, and I will never get deceived into worshipping Israel or Jerusalem in this world, in this evil and transitory world.
    Texe isn’t preaching lies or heresies.
    Sid Roth does preach lies and heresies. That means Sid Roth is a ravening wolf, and that he will receive a more severe damnation. Sid Roth is a Judaizer.
    Your only complaint about Texe is that he exposes the occult and heresies. That is not a fault. That is Biblical.
    You are condemning a man for his righteousness. You don’t think this is wicked to do that?
    And you praise a heretic and Judaizer that he is “more spiritual” — just words. What teachings does Sid Roth espouse that make him worthy of your great devotion? Paul was not a great speaker. Paul was a righteous and holy man who spoke the truth. That’s what’s important, and what God is looking for.
    Sid Roth claims he is the Apple of God’s Eye and that all Jews are the Apple of God’s Eye, and “Bless me I’m Jewish.” That’s a heresy.
    Have you ever listened to Brother Nathanael Kapner of http://www.realizionistnews.com? This man does NOT brag that he was an orthodox Jew. He is disgusted by what the Jews are doing and the way they hate Jesus and he is repulsed by the Talmud and the Kabalah and by all the wickedness the Jews are doing. This is the proper reaction of any Christian. Our eyes are supposed to be open and we are supposed to be a new creature in Christ.
    How is Sid Roth a new creature? He wants us to not say the name of Jesus, which is the goal of the Talmud that his name be forever blotted from the earth. He wants Christians to rename Jesus some Hebrew word, even though the Bible was written in Greek and not Hebrew. He wants Christians to kiss the feet of the Jews and exalt them, “Bless me I’m Jewish,” and tells us to “love Jerusalem” so we can “prosper.” That is prosperity teaching and a heresy.
    Sid Roth is all about heresy, about worldliness, about the rebuilt Temple, the same temple that Jesus condemned, but he wants it rebuilt, and what is the purpose of the temple? To offer animal sacrifices, which is a slap in the face of God who already made the sacrifice for our sins.

    1. Jeff Fenske

      Post-tribber,
      You said: “Your only complaint about Texe is that he exposes the occult and heresies.”
      But I’ve been saying that is what he’s good at.
      And I’m not condemning Texe, but you sure are Sid.
      As I said in the other comment, I don’t think you understand Sid because you don’t seem to understand the role of the Holy Spirit for us today.
      jeff

  15. post-tribber

    Yes, I condemn Sid Roth. He is a Zionist. He is a Luciferian. He is a driving force to stamp out the name of Jesus, which is the goal of the Talmud spoken repeatedly.
    He is a Supremacist and a bigot and a heretic, who preaches prosperity doctrines, which is contrary to the Bible.
    You condemn Texe because you don’t like his style. That is just bigotry and prejudice, unbecoming a Christian. If you have a legitimate gripe against any of TExe’s teachings, then you are duty bound to speak up. Otherwise, you are slandering a Christian brother.
    As to the Holy Spirit, you are not harmonizing the scriptures. You are just repeating what you’ve been told, as in, “First time I ever heard of two Pentacosts, so therefore it must not be true,” even though you can read the scriptures and see with your own two eyes that the same experience was repeated a day or two later after the first Pentacost. The Scriptures take precedence over what somebody told you about them. Most everything we have been told about the scriptures are LIES. Pure lies.
    By the time we are fed so many lies, but that time most of us have dried up and lost our zeal and are too tired and too busy and too lazy to read the Bible, and we go on through the rest of our lives believing what other people tell us the Bible says, not bothering to read for ourselves.
    Dan Corner has got it straight. I hardly ever catch him mishandling the scriptures or twisting them or wresting them. He does harmonize the scriptures, pulls up every single related scripture to get the full and big picture, rather than zeroing in on a phrase or part of a verse and yanking it out and building a religion on it.
    I think it just takes a whole lot of nerve to do that kind of thing, and only people who do not fear God or respect the Bible would presume to do such a thing. God only gives grace to the humble, and people who think they are above the Bible and have the right to wrest it and twist it to make it say what they want are guilty of the same sin Satan is, pride, wanting to be “like the most High.”

  16. Mr Anonymous

    seems to me as though you speak of people thats not really saved to begin with just as judas who was not given by the father but only seem like he was (john 6:64-66) this was the same error that dan said on a radio station in front many listening audiences who knows how many people actually believed it theres a difference between true christians and professing christians notice in john 6:60-66 they’re called his disciples,hmm would seem like they truly are since they’re his but john 6:65 is clearly stated that even they weren’t given by the father by which i’ve refuted post tribber with that false heresy of saying judas was given by the father.See how people ain’t really getting the whole picture of what scripture has to say i can clearly see why this deception is so great even people that seem like they’re actually putting scripture in place are always off in other places that dont add up.now since we know the evidence of his disciples and those that are given by the father now we can go back to john 6:37-40.lets examine john 10:14 before john 10:27 a little harder the scripture you all been at war with for so long by which isaiah can clear this up (isaiah 40:11) (isaiah 53:11).

  17. DN

    Lover of Truth:
    Come on! All who believe in OSAS. How can you ignore or twist scriptures like the following that speak so clearly and warn believers not to fall away?
    Hebrews 3:12 (NASB95)
    12 Take care, brethren, that there not be in any one of you an evil, unbelieving heart that falls away from the living God.
    For if we sin willfully after we have received the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins, but a certain fearful expectation of judgment, and fiery indignation which will devour the adversaries”
    (Heb. 10:26-27). “Therefore do not cast away your confidence, which has great reward. For you have need of endurance, so that after you have done the will of God, you may receive the promise” (Heb. 10:35-36).
    James cautions us, saying, “My brethren, if any among you strays from the truth and one turns him back, let him know that he who turns a sinner from the error of his way will save his soul from death and will cover a multitude of sins” (Jas. 5:19-20).
    We need to stop trying to find ways around God’s word. We are admonished to watch and pray so that we are not decieved and overcome. How can any Christian ignore these warning throughout scripture? The word of God does not contradict itself and God is not the author of confussion. We would not be warned to be careful about falling from the living God if it were not possible. God does not force anyone to continue in the faith. We would not be warned of the danger of casting away confidence (faith) if it were not possible. There are numerous warnings in the bible about the danger of falling away yet so many Christians still claim OSAS. I find this difficult to understand. Why is it so hard to just take God at his word. Yes your sins were paid for by the sacrifice of Jesus Christ dying on the cross and shedding His blood. It is truly a free, unearned gift yet the bible clearly warns that we can forfiet His gift and promises through falling away from Grace through returning to a sinful life and unbelief. Believe the word of God. Heed His warnings and run the race with patience until the end. Hold fast and stand firm in the truth. Keep believing, listening and following Christ and you will never loose the eternal security that you are promised.

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