my theory, the bottom line here: we can’t trust people who have the root of all evil in them.
I absolutely do think it is wise to look at doctrines from multiple perspectives, including what others claim to have experienced.
Joshua,
These are very good questions, sir. God bless you for digging and trying to sort this out. I’ve been thinking about how to explain this as briefly as possible. I’ll do my best, but there are so many factors involved that I need to cover some ground, especially for those who read this who aren’t as familiar with my work.
First and foremost, when studying doctrines, I want to know what the Bible really says. That’s what I did with tithing, which I laid out in The Day that Tithing Ended — To Now Be Led By the Holy Spirit. I actually got the dream and the prophecy Tithing or the Carriage Driver? much later — and the Russel Kelly analysis Russell Earl Kelly, Ph.D.: Tithing is Not a Christian Doctrine came even more recent in my truth journey.
I personally think the Russel Kelly presentation is by itself a slam-dunk, proving that tithing does not belong in the new covenant, and it wasn’t even practised in the old covenant the way most pro-tithing pastors teach it.
I think the main reason tithing is still accepted is because so few pastors and even lay people will watch look at the evidence, especially by watching his presentation.
It’s just like 9/11, which I go into at length at my other main site, ToBeFree. Here is a prime example: Architect Richard Gage on 9/11 truth: “98% of those who watch this presentation end up agreeing with us…. We really only get called conspiracy theorists and kooks by those who are UNWILLING TO LOOK at the evidence.”
Then the question can be asked why are people so unwilling to look at the evidence, both for tithing and 9/11. I have hundreds of Media Bias Exposed posts at ToBeFree. People are brainwashed by the media. There is almost a total blackout on 9/11 truth. And they label anyone who questions the official story as unpatriotic and a pinhead.
In the evangelical churches that teach tithing, if I was in a church and told people about what the Bible really says about tithing I’d be labeled as divisive, and probably James-3 cursed from their hearts.
Tithing is such a tough issue because it’s in the love of money category. It involves the root of all evil. So people (pastors included) can get really emotional about this subject if they have this demonic entity (a religious spirit) driving them.
And many pastors and attendees think that if the tithing doctrine falls, the money dries up and the doors close.
This is actually probably true, because most churches are spiritually almost dead largely because of the tithing doctrine, which encourages people to follow the law in this crucial love-of-money area instead of to be led by the Holy Spirit, determining in our hearts what to do, as Paul said.
And the reality is that these churches should no longer exist unless they repent and turn to God, so that He is their head.
I started writing this last night regarding the strong emotions that can be involved here:
Have you ever seen a debate at a university between a evolutionist professor and a creationist? I don’t think I’ve ever seen that much public anger over something religious except maybe in Jerusalem, decades ago. Students and faculty get almost hostile. Their brains and reasoning go out the window.
Well, tithing can be that way too. I’ve been trying to understand how the love of money can be the root of all evil, because not all evil seems to be tied to the love of money. At this point, I’m thinking that when one has the love of money, one then has the root of all evil — and this demon drives the person to do all sorts of evil to help satiate the love-of-money appetite.
And this often includes lying, and Rev. 21 says all liars will go to the Lake of Fire, so pushing tithing can definitely be a salvation issue. Tithing drives disobedience and draws people away from being led by the Holy Spirit. And many who push tithing strongly pray that people accept this and do this. But because tithing isn’t a Christian doctrine, they are James-3 cursing religious spirits on the people. These are often demon driven prayers that demons answer, not God. This is DANGEROUS!!!
I wrote this last night as well:
The number one key in this whole money thing is to not have the root of all evil in us. We should be open to God as to what to do with our money. ‘Christians’ do all sorts of things for money, especially pastors. We don’t ever want to be love-of-money driven.
I remember a senior pastor, decades ago pounding the pulpit, quoting Malachi: “Don’t you dare rob God of your tithes and offerings!” He had no business even preaching, for he wasn’t resting. He was love-of-money driven. And these same ‘Christian’ leaders really do pray (James-3 curse) people to be compelled to give them money. They love tithing, because it’s a guaranteed income whether they’re right with God and people or not.
These leaders don’t teach the people to get right with those they’ve hurt because the pastors themselves don’t get right with those they’ve hurt.
They don’t teach people to be Spirit led because they themselves aren’t Spirit led. They teach people to be under the law instead.
Tithing is one of the most diabolic doctrines there is because it undermines the role of the Holy Spirit in our lives in this key love-of-money area. So it then often affects many areas. Hardly any ‘Christians’ are Spirit led, these days. Which is why ‘worship’ is so dead in most churches too.
There is an associated, also diabolical doctrine that teaches that ‘Christians’ can’t have evil spirits inside of them, affecting them. And oh boy do the demons and the Devil like this one. Demons then can drive pastors to push tithing, while the pastors think they are Spirit driven. But the Holy Spirit doesn’t drive at all. He entreats.
Most pastors aren’t resting because most pastors are demon driven, not Holy Spirit driven, and this is what makes people fearful if they don’t tithe, I believe. I wrote this also last night:

Many give because of the guilt they feel if they don’t, which is often powered by the religious spirits that were prayed into them.

Perhaps it’s hard to understand how teaching the law in the new covenant affects people if we don’t understand how demons are used to reinforce false teaching, doctrines of demons.
If leaders are love-of-money driven they’re disqualified from leading, because “an overseer must be blameless,” Paul said. But love-of-money driven people have the root of all evil in them. They’re not even close to being qualified to lead people, let alone accept their money.
So they’ll put trips on people which evil spirits will enforce (James-3 cursing), and this happens a lot. Also, many, if not most pastors also keep their power by praying against those who they think would threaten their power.
This is one reason why I think it’s wonderful to pray in tongues. We can pray against these evil spirits, and we can even pray for those putting the curses on us. And if you get tongues, then you know there really was a curse. You can tell who is cursing you this way. It’s like science. It’s foolproof. Praying in tongues is one of the main keys to getting and staying free — and overcoming fear (demons of fear).
There is the fear of God and then — there are demons of fear.
We should fear if we’re willfully lusting, lying, hating, etc. — if we’re not right with God and people. That is healthy fear, and it’s maybe lower down in the body. I haven’t thought about that much. But the fear from men that is demon driven, it feels different. It incapacitates. It’s probably good to be able to distinguish between the two.
If you pray in tongues, you can pray against the source of the fear and if you get prayer language there is something to pray for regarding this, and the fear will probably totally go as well — unless there are additional sources. And by praying this way, you’re helping the spiritual bully, the James-3 curser as well. Because they’re going to hell. We can help them see the light by praying for them. This is a big deal. I’m surprised that more people aren’t interested in learning how to pray this way. It baffles me, actually.
As long as we don’t have the love of money we don’t have to worry about money being a salvation problem. Paul said to determine in our hearts what to give. What is our non-demon-driven heart telling us?
If it’s not at peace (and I’m talking deep down inside, literally in the heart, that is more than a pump, and probably in the gut too, which also has brainlike tissue. I have posts on this). We need to find this place of rest, centeredness, being centered in God.
I’m pointing out this love-of-money demon-driven mechanism for another reason. Those who have encounters with God, claiming that God told them we should tithe, can be love-of-money demon driven themselves. And this can taint their experience. People who are love-of-money driven, who have the root of all evil active within can’t be fully trusted — shouldn’t be fully trusted.
Have you ever heard someone prophecy something that made sense, and then one or two lines didn’t sound right at all?
A person can hear from God and then also hear from a demon. There should only be one voice.
How many tithing sermonettes have you heard in your lifetime? Many church goers have heard hundreds and even thousands. How many times do you think people have prayed that you would tithe to them or to their church? I’ve probably heard hundreds of such messages. Many leaders want the people to feel guilty if the people don’t automatically give them 10% of their gross income, whether these leaders are right with God and people or not. These men (and women) have love-of-money demons in them. They’re demon driven, and most of them probably have lying spirits too. They know how ot say the right things, but aren’t honest about what is really going on in their own hearts. They shouldn’t get a cent. They’re disqualified to lead. Is it possible that these leaders are actually deceived? Maybe.
So I think the average church attendee should pray in tongues for those who have or are cursing them with false doctrine. Then we can start from ground zero and investigate these issues without being demonically fear driven. These people are sick. They’re demon infested. We need to love them, but we shouldn’t honor them as legitimate leaders. They’re actually destroying the kingdom. They interfere with what God wants to do. And I still get cursed by them every single day, to tell you the truth.
There are some leaders who claim to have visions, dreams, and words about doctrines. What is their fruit. Are they love of money driven? Are they women who are disobediently trying to lead men from pulpits when Paul said not to?
And by the way, pastor’s wives can curse people too. They can even control their husband pastor.
There is one lady (NOT Mary Kathryn Baxter) who wrote a book about going to heaven. She claims that non-tithers won’t go to heaven. I was told to read her book, but when I read this, I bolted, knowing that something is very fishy with this ministry. She said she was told this when she was in heaven.

http://www.crazymalc.co.nz/2007/Sep/16Sep/16Sep.htm

[Jesus said] “Any Christian who doesn’t tithe will not be blessed because they love money more than My Word. Those who love money more than My Word will never see My Kingdom.” (Page 127)

The Lord is very unhappy with those who are not tithing. (See Malachi 3:8-10). The Lord showed me and told me clearly that whoever doesn’t tithe will not see His face because they love money more than Him.

What she said Jesus told her doesn’t even make sense in many cases. Most churches are leading people away from being truly in Christ. The Lord doesn’t want most people to tithe or give at all to churches that actually teach doctrines that turn people away from being in Christ. Tithing is in a sense anti-Christ, and those who smell a rat in the churches wisely will not give them money, because they are funding a mind-control anti-being-in-Christ assembly that basically says “I’m okay; you’re okay” as long as you are a faithful tither, etc..
It may be true that those who love money more than God’s word will not enter heaven, but this isn’t the main reason why many people don’t tithe. And Jesus knows that. He knows people’s hearts. He can’t be buffaloed, like many of the readers of this lady’s book, I believe. “This is deception.”
I also found this online:

http://www.unleavenedbreadministries.org/?page=helldemons

Question: It was shared that in one revelation many children spoke of their revelations of going to hell where they saw the lost tormented by demons. However, one of them prophesied that hell is filled with people who weren’t faithful tithers. I was told this made the whole thing wrong because the Bible doesn’t teach that they are tormented by demons there.

Answer: The fact that one child among them, who may have had a religious spirit, falsely prophesied of the tithe does not make the rest of their witnesses of hell false any more than one person’s false prophesy in any assembly makes everyone else’s prophecy false. The devil often tries to sneak his lies in. And sometimes he does this to discredit the truth too. We must rightly divide the Word everywhere and not condemn the righteous.

You mentioned Mary Kathryn Baxter.

“Other NDE experiences, such as those of Mary K. Baxter, indicate there is a place of suffering for those who do not tithe.”

I’m not aware of where she said this. Do you have the actual quote? I like Mary, and studied her experiences in depth many years ago, maybe even 20. I listened to her entire multiple cassette set in which she shared her experiences, etc.; though, I never did fully read her book.
I’ve also seen her in person and spoke with her. I believe she is the real deal. She is a broken woman (in a good way, broken hearted for the lost and tormented).

3 “Blessed are the poor in spirit, for theirs is the Kingdom of Heaven.

4 Blessed are those who mourn, for they shall be comforted.

I found her experiences to be doctrinally correct. The disobedient pastors in hell got the worst punishment, by the way, pastors!!
If she said something about non-tithers going to hell, I’d like to hear what she said.
As for Mary, if she did indeed say this, it’s possible that she just said ‘tithing’ instead of ‘giving’ too. She experienced many things during every visit, and then she wrote them down later. Who knows?
Or maybe she had such strong tithing teaching that she could only see things through pro-tithing eyes.
Also, Mary was emotionally freaked out for years after the experience. Maybe she didn’t write things down right away and guessed at some of what she did write down. Maybe she had the very common tithing religious spirit and it influenced her to write this.
I don’t know, but I like Mary. I haven’t seen or heard from her in many years. But what I’ve seen is that this lady is genuine in her motive. But that doesn’t mean that everything she says is necessarily true.
She at least did preach in many churches. Do you think that maybe she got cursed. And maybe she stepped over into an area that Paul said women are not supposed to be stepping into. It’s one thing to share one’s testimony, but I’ve seen her go beyond that. And do you think that maybe there were women in ‘churches’ who prayed (James-3 cursed) that Mary would do this?
Mary may have gone out from the safety of her covering into the lion’s den.
One of the biggest problems in the ‘church,’ today, is that women are usurping men’s authority, something that Paul directly forbid. And there is no doubt in my mind that they didn’t at least try to influence Mary to do and maybe even teach things that weren’t totally balanced — because this is so common in the American churches.
Rebellion is as the sin of witchcraft. And rebellious women have been trying to hijack the church, whimp out the word of God. They have to destroy Paul’s teaching on the role of women in the church just to get started. They James-3 curse pastors who don’t let them control them. They’re a big part of what is keeping real Christianity from happening.
I haven’t said much about this (mainly only in one place until also here), partly because it isn’t in my “Let Us Be ONE” prophesy, and partly because I didn’t want to alienate people unnecessarily.
This is such a delicate issue. It’s easy for women to think that Paul didn’t appreciate women as much as men, and that maybe I don’t also. But they don’t realize that this is God’s perspective, and it’s for their own good. Women are as totally awesome as men, but we definitely are wired differently and have different roles based upon how we’re made.
Science now backs this 100%; though, it’s hard for the studies to even get out because of the bias against this Biblical conclusion.
So basically, tithing is such a hot button issue because of the reasons I mention. Tithing is demonically driven, the-root-of-all-evil driven. It has no biblical basis in the new covenant church.
By the way, if you’re still not convinced that the law isn’t superseded by the Spirit in the new covenant, post-Pentecost church, please look at the comments in Who-Goes-To-Heaven Scriptures — Narrow is the Way, starting at about comment #20.
If you read these comments I think you’ll see that there is no basis at all for us to be following the law, now that we’re to be led by the Spirit. Paul is consistently clear. A reader throws his follow-the-law-bondage statements at us and Adrian and I refute every single one through what the Bible so clearly says.
I think the Hebrew roots movement is somewhat popular because many realize that what they’re being taught isn’t true enough. People are looking for answers, and the demons are waiting to replace one doctrine of demons with another; though, the real thing has been in front of us all along.
I’ll continue later in answering your Howard Pittman part of your question.
God bless, and keep searching, worshiping in Spirit and in truth!
Jeff Fenske : )

Okay Joshua,
Here is my part 3, my response to this part of your statement:

I’ve been intrigued by many of the authors your website links too. I’ve spent the last several days researching men such Howard Pittman, the Baptist pastor who had an NDE. I mention Baptist because this highlights the fearful complexity of knowing who to listed to. Rev. Pittman, according to his account of his NDE, was punished as a son, not eternal punishment. This in spite of the fact that he was a Baptist (which I assume means he communicated the OSAS doctrine–to the damnation of others).

I’m assuming you are asking why did Howard Pittman go to heaven even though he was teaching false salvation-doctrine that would even send people to Hell.
For those interested, see: How Many Will Be in Heaven? How Many Find the WAY? Only 1 in 40 — 2.5%?!!
I think the answer is multifaceted, but I think the most important component is found in Hebrews 10:26-39, especially in verse 26, which is one of my favorite verses of all time. I found this while reading 35 years ago. I hope this is a comfort to you.

26 For if we sin willfully after we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remains no more a sacrifice for sins, 27 but a certain fearful expectation of judgment, and a fierceness of fire which will devour the adversaries. 28 A man who disregards Moses’ law dies without compassion on the word of two or three witnesses. 29 How much worse punishment, do you think, will he be judged worthy of, who has trodden under foot the Son of God, and has counted the blood of the covenant with which he was sanctified an unholy thing, and has insulted the Spirit of grace? 30 For we know him who said, “Vengeance belongs to me,” says the Lord, “I will repay.” Again, “The Lord will judge his people.” 31 It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.

32 But remember the former days, in which, after you were enlightened, you endured a great struggle with sufferings; 33 partly, being exposed to both reproaches and oppressions; and partly, becoming partakers with those who were treated so. 34 For you both had compassion on me in my chains, and joyfully accepted the plundering of your possessions, knowing that you have for yourselves a better possession and an enduring one in the heavens. 35 Therefore don’t throw away your boldness, which has a great reward. 36 For you need endurance so that, having done the will of God, you may receive the promise.

I highlighted phrases having to do with reckless and willful disobedience. This is a person who knew what to do and willfully and knowingly disobeyed.
1 John says if our consciences don’t condemn us, then we have faith to enter. I think it’s possible to teach once-saved-always-saved and still go to heaven. But I imagine it’s a rare thing, especially today.
Howard Pittman was preaching 30 years ago, which was when there was still significant integrity in a number of churches. It was before internet porn and the low-cut-top epidemic swept the nation. I doubt if Howard got sucked into Charlies’ Angels. Wasn’t he a farmer? I think he was one of those simple (in a good way) country boys, pure at heart. So if he did teach OSAS (I don’t know what he taught), I would doubt that he would have pushed it like so many preachers do today, actually giving people a license to sin.
I’m writing a post right now about a friend who has gone public with his Catholic faith. I really think he believes he’s doing the right thing, but he really is leading people astray. I think I know him well enough to say that he’s going to heaven because he’s not a willful sinner. He’s very conscientious. I consider him a great guy — worth writing a post about (actually more than one) to hopefully get on the same page in time.
There is also a possibility that Howard wouldn’t have entered heaven. He was only at the gates. Maybe this was a warning, wake-up call for him as well, if he wasn’t right enough to enter heaven. As far as I know, he’s still alive. Perhaps someone could ask him.
There is also this theory that I have, based upon a dream of a very Godly preacher whom I respect a lot, but whom I think does some things he shouldn’t, while thinking that he should.
I write about this in one of my comments in the Who-Goes-To-Heaven… article. He told me of a dream he had in which there was this wall in a part of heaven in which people were behind it, really emotionally going through some stuff.
He surmises that these people are going through this stuff before they can enter the fullness of heaven, itself. He doesn’t teach this, because he doesn’t have crystal clear scripture to back it up. But he did mention a couple of scriptures which I don’t recall.
It didn’t occur to me at the time, but I thought later that maybe this was God warning him that this is where he would end up for a certain period of time if he didn’t stop doing something he was doing that he really thought he had the right to do.
I think it’s possible that Christians can go to heaven having seriously sinned; though, not having known they were sinning seriously. Maybe they have to deal with some stuff up their first….
I don’t teach this as a fact at all, but it’s something that is a real possibility. It’s possible that there is some truth to the Catholic teaching of purgatory, but it’s not like they teach it. Purgatory doesn’t fit into Hebrews 10:26-39 and many other scriptures, but this pastor’s dream could if the people going through it behind the wall hadn’t been willful sinners, sinning sins that would normally lead to death.
God doesn’t trick us, giving us the assurance in our hearts that everything is okay with Him here on earth when it isn’t. If we feel real peace in our hearts from being clean to the degree that clean is I believe we’ll have confidence to enter heaven when we die.
The Holy Spirit will teach us all things — if we’re teachable. Some people are bullheaded and aren’t as open to truth as they claim — but do walk in the truth that they know.
We each have to work out our own salvation through fear and trembling, and “having done the will of God, you may receive the promise.”
I would have to throw that in there from the above Hebrew passage, which is similar to Jesus in Matthew:
“Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter into the Kingdom of Heaven; but he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven.”
We should do our best to find out what that is, and if our consciences don’t condemn us on Earth, I don’t believe they will in heaven either.
It’s willful sin, knowing that it’s sin but still deciding to do it anyway. And it’s only certain sins, which I try to explain in Who-Goes-To-Heaven….
I hope that helps.
May we all be ONE in Christ, actually!
“Then the world will know,” Jesus said in John 17.
Care for the world. It’s good to have a burden for those who don’t see the true church yet, but who would be greatly blessed once they do.
We can be that group who convinces the world that Jesus is the Way, the Truth and the Life, because we’ll walk like Jesus’ walked — all of our hearts right with God and each other — ONE!
I don’t want to just serve God so I can go to heaven. I want to see real revival happen, all of us soaring in Him, so full of love and life. Why not live life to the full?
I think it’s a biblical concept to serve God so as not to go to Hell. This is a Godly incentive. We all should love ourselves enough to make sure we’re right with Him and each other so we’re sure about our eternal future.
But I think we can do even better than that — loving our neighbors as ourselves so we will want them to want what we really do have.
And there is so much sickness and depression, etc. in the ‘church.’ This should not be. And I want to dedicate myself to seeing the church so close to God, collectively, that great miracles will happen regularly. We will soar in Him. All of the sick who are truly in the church will be saved.
This cessation stuff from Augustine and others is just nonsense based upon experience:
The HOLY Spirit wants to move through us so powerfully. It will be so much fun!

Come on people now,
smile on your brother,
Everybody get together
and try to love one another
right now.

I’m smiling just thinking about it.
God bless!
Think BIG!
God will honor those who seek Him with their whole heart.
The times they are a changing —

for the better!

(from a kingdom perspective)
Jeff : )