This video has been taken down across the web. This is my fourth try at keeping this vital presentation alive at ONEcanhappen.
Joe, what’s going on? You nailed it! This is so important and excellent!!!
jeff
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Joe Schimmel, The Great Deception Once Saved Always Saved
Published on May 9, 2015
Audio-only version:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ll3C1-Kmozc
“The Great Deception” by Pastor Joe Schimmel
Published on Jan 17, 2014
Is the mass teaching of “Once Saved, Always Saved” truly biblical, or is this the very same lie the serpent told Eve in the Garden of Eden?
“(Gen 3:4) And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die”
“The Great Deception” discusses the deception of the “Once Saved, Always Saved” doctrine in light of the scriptures. …
Description from: TheCozmikTruth, one of the sites that was apparently forced to take Joe’s presentation down for some reason:
The GREAT Deception: “Once Saved Always Saved” Doctrine EXPOSED P. 1
Uploaded on Feb 3, 2012
In this presentation, producer of “They Sold their Souls to Rock-n-Roll” Pastor Joe Schimmel explores and refutes the popular teachings of the growing O.S.A.S doctrine infamously known as “Once Saved Always Saved” in an exhaustive 2 hour cutting edge sermon providing countless sources in scripture as it rooting its heresy from Calvinism and how it has seamlessly meshed itself into today’s Fundamental Baptist Churches. Many of today’s popular “Christian” Youtube channels have adopted this deception, and we at TheCozmikTruth hold no remorse in exposing this lie for what it truly is. Remember that when you stand before Jesus Christ, he will judge you according to his word; he will not take into account that you decided to follow a teaching because a popular teacher taught it. It’s simple as that. Spread this to all.
Related:
THE GREAT DECEPTION [by Joe Schimmel]
Exposing the false teaching of “Once Saved Always Saved” doctrines, along with some of its most popular teachers.
(1 CD includes 1 extended length message in MP3 Format)
Related Product: “Abide or Burn Series” & “Calvinism Refuted”
[Video] Dan Corner Interview: The Believer’s Conditional Security
Who-Goes-To-Heaven Scriptures — Narrow is the Way | Who are the Children of God?
The meaning of “Grace” (χαρις) in the Bible: It’s not what you think?
“Grace”: To Give You Life to Overcome—Not a License to Sin
(video) Dan Corner: True Grace Vs False Grace — Charles Stanley’s security in sin: “You cannot out-sin the grace of God” Vs Jesus: “He who endures to the end will be saved”
How Many Will Be in Heaven? How Many Find the WAY? Only 1 in 40 — 2.5%!?!!
joshua james
Joe did such a great job on exposing rock and roll with his DVD called “they gave there soul for rock and roll”. This is a huge disappointment to see these teaching coming from his lips. In a nut shell he is telling people that you must earn your salvation. While I will admit that some of the teachings shown here are be C. Stanley are a little shaky. There is no way you can earn your way to heaven. Think again! Yes many are using once saved to there destruction. But they were never saved to begin with. Jesus saves. Not us! We can not save ourselves! Not with all the works in the world!
Rick
You are correct Joshua. Grace in the Latin means gift. We are saved by Grace which is a gift from God. Not by works lest any man boast. I loved the expose on Rock music, but then this heresy against the Bible and God. People write this stuff because they can’t believe that someone that isn’t leading “as good a Christian life as them” is saved. But God says our righteousness is as filthy rags. Do we have to get our salvation renewed every day ? This is also what happens when people become legalistic and not properly educated in the word. It saddens me because I know the Lord says he will never leave nor forsake us. I backslid for 23 years until the Lord brought me back. I mean out of Left field and stronger than I was before. That was 8 years ago. I’m living proof that these Pastors are not putting out proper doctrine and they will be held accountable for it. I pray for them. It’s to bad Joe seemed like he was on the mark in that video.
Jeff Fenske
Dear Rick,
“Not properly educated in the word,” you say. I would say it’s more like, “not properly indoctrinated into what has become mainstream: easy believism, ‘positive-encouraging K-LOVE,’ ‘I’m okay; you’re okay.'”
Or do you remember “Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the law” (Aleister Crowley) from Joe’s rock music exposé? That’s clearly pure, satanic heresy, but is this far from “I’m okay; you’re okay as long as we’re truly born again” once-saved-always-saved.
Look at what Luther said: Martin Luther: Sin Boldly — “No sin can separate us from Him, even if we were to kill or commit adultery thousands of times each day.” Luther sounds almost like Crowley, only ‘Him’ for Luther is different than who is ‘him’ for Crowley.
The way you are talking, I wonder if you even listened to Joe Schimmel’s entire message in this video? Did you hear all of the warning scriptures that Joe quoted? I really do wonder, sometimes, if people even listen to the whole message before they openly criticize Joe like you have here.
It seems that you have a number of misconceptions. For example, you have decided what ‘Grace’ means in the New Testament based solely upon what you say it means in Latin. But the main thing is how the Greek word is actually used in the New Testament by the particular writer you are reading.
For example, please consider this, from: http://www.bible-researcher.com/grace.html
The meaning of “Grace” (χαρις) in the Bible
“Against a still common view it must be stated that in Paul χαρις [the Greek word for grace – ed.] does not mean primarily a divine attribute (Wobbe, Charis-Gedanke, 32). It does not mean, in good Greek fashion, God’s graciousness, nor concetely his free love (Taylor). It almost always means the power of salvation which finds expression in specific gifts, acts, and spheres and which is even individualized in the charismata.” —Ernst Käsemann, Commentary on Romans, trans. G. Bromiley (Grand Rapids: Eerdmans, 1980), p. 14.
“In Paul … χαρις is never merely an attitude or disposition of God (God’s character as gracious); consistently it denotes something much more dynamic—the wholly generous act of God. Like ‘Spirit,’ with which it overlaps in meaning (cf., e.g., [Rom] 6:14 and Gal 5:18), it denotes effective divine power in the experience of men.” —James D.G. Dunn, Romans 1-8 (Dallas: Word Books, 1988), p. 17.
[…]
Naturally, the various meanings of the word were simply taken over from ordinary language by the New Testament writers. And so it is quite illegitimate to try to construct on the basis of all the occurrences of the word a single doctrine that will account for all the various usages. That one word could express both “charm of speech” and “thankfulness for blessings” was doubtless felt to be a mere accident, if it was thought of at all. But none the less, the very elasticity of the word enabled it to receive still another—new and technically Christian—meaning. This seems to have originated in part by fusing together two of the ordinary significances.
In the first place, as in (e) above, charis may mean “a gift.” In 1 Corinthians 16:3; 2 Corinthians 8:19 it is the money given by the Corinthians to the Jerusalemites. In 2 Corinthians 9:8 it is the increase of worldly goods that God grants for charitable purposes. In 2 Corinthians 1:15 it is the benefit received by the Corinthians from a visit by Paul. In a more spiritual sense charis is the endowment for an office in the church (Ephesians 4:7), more particularly for the apostolate (Romans 1:5; 12:3; 15:15; 1 Corinthians 3:10; Ephesians 3:2,7). So in 1 Corinthians 1:4-7 charis is expanded into “word and all knowledge,” endowments with which the Corinthians were especially favored. In 1 Peter 1:13 charis is the future heavenly blessedness that Christians are to receive; in 3:7 it is the present gift of “life.”
In the second place, charis is the word for God’s favor, a sense of the term that is especially refined by St. Paul (see below). But God’s favor differs from man’s in that it cannot be conceived of as inactive. A favorable “thought” of God’s about a man involves of necessity the reception of some blessing by that man, and “to look with favor” is one of the commonest Biblical paraphrases for “bestow a blessing.” Between “God’s favor” and “God’s favors” there exists a relation of active power, and as charis denoted both the favor and the favors, it was the natural word for the power that connected them. This use is very clear in 1 Corinthians 15:10, where Paul says, “not I, but the grace of God which was with me” labored more abundantly than they all: grace is something that labors. So in 2 Corinthians 12:9, “My grace is sufficient for thee: for my power is made perfect in weakness”; compare 2 Timothy 2:1, “strengthened in the grace,” and 1 Peter 4:10, “stewards of the manifold grace.” Evidently in this sense “grace” is almost a synonym for the Spirit, and there is little real difference between “full of the Holy Spirit” and “full of grace and power” in Acts 6:5,8, while there is a very striking parallel between Ephesians 4:7-13 and 1 Corinthians 12:4-11, with “gifts of grace” in the one passage, and “gifts of the Spirit” in the other. And this connection between grace and the Spirit is found definitely in the formula “Spirit of grace” in Hebrews 10:29 (compare Zechariah 12:10).
And you are quoting from Hebrews 13:5, when you say: “I know the Lord says he will never leave nor forsake us.” But who is ‘us,’ according to the writer of Hebrews? Have you read Hebrews 10:26-39 carefully? See: Who-Goes-To-Heaven Scriptures — Narrow is the Way, which states what the Bible really says…. What happens to ‘Christians’ who willfully sin sins that lead to death like lust in Hebrews 13:4, the verse that precedes the one you quoted?
You call Joe’s teaching ‘heresy.’ Webster’s gives these two definitions http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/heresy:
1 a : adherence to a religious opinion contrary to church dogma b : denial of a revealed truth by a baptized member of the Roman Catholic Church c : an opinion or doctrine contrary to church dogma
2 a : dissent or deviation from a dominant theory, opinion, or practice b : an opinion, doctrine, or practice contrary to the truth or to generally accepted beliefs or standards
By the majority of these definitions, from an evangelical perspective, perhaps you are correct by calling Joe’s teaching heresy, because The Greatest Deception has now become generally accepted church dogma, and in my opinion, this is the main reason why there is very little difference between the world and the church, statistically, and is the number one reason why we’re on the verge of losing America.
But if heresy would be defined as a significantly important teaching that is contrary to what the Bible actually teaches, what the truth really is, definition 2b(a), then I would say that OSAS is absolutely the heresy. See Who-Goes-To-Heaven Scriptures — Narrow is the Way if you really want to see what the Bible really teaches, and I’ll give you $1,000 if you can prove that I’m not on the right track. And that goes for anyone.
What do born-again Christians have that old covenant believers didn’t? The Holy Spirit living inside of us, 24/7 (though in most ‘Christian’ He’s grieved). Jesus did His works “by the Spirit” A Call to Intimacy: The Holy Spirit in John’s Gospel & Epistles just as we now are to, and now can.
We have the Holy Spirit. We can either abide in Him, stay right with God by His grace, or we can do whatever we like (Crowley) contrary to the Spirit and we’ll lose our salvation (John 15, Romans 8:1-4, and many others). Our names will actually be removed from the Book of Life (Rev. 3:1-6).
We don’t do works of the law anymore, now, by the empowering grace of the Holy Spirit we work out our salvation through fear and trembling. Joe didn’t write that; Paul did, the grace teacher.
Grace isn’t a license to sin. Grace is the enablement, the empowering to overcome sin.
And Rick, you said: “But God says our righteousness is as filthy rags.” That’s an old covenant text. Now we have the Holy Spirit indwelling us. What we can now do by His grace is BEAUTIFUL!
Jesus paid the price, lived a Holy life and shed His sinless blood for us so we could be forgiven. But Hebrews 10 says that if we treat as an unholy thing the blood of the covenant that sanctified us by willfully sinning, there will no longer be a sacrifice for sin, but rather a fearful expectation of judgment….
And this is the state of most ‘Christians’ today. They are actually under condemnation, not just conviction (see Romans 8:1-4 in a Textus Receptus based Bible like the NKJV. The NIV omits verse 1b, but retains verse 4). And K-LOVE primarily plays “God loves us no matter what” music so the ‘Christians’ who feel condemned in their hearts will be brainwashed into believing that “I’m okay; you’re okay;” even though, this is a lie, based upon The Greatest Deception.
“Come out from them and be separate,” says the Lord. “Touch not the unclean thing.” Turn off the TV if we can’t watch it without sinning. Jesus said “it’s better to pluck out your eye than lose your whole body in Hell.”
Only when we abide in Christ can we be ONE with each other, Jesus’ prayer for us in John 17. And only when we’re ONE with each other in Christ will the world know. Now, they accurately, for the most part smell a stinky rat, the ‘church,’ which is largely because of this one stinking doctrine, OSAS.
How many people are screaming in Hell right now mostly because of this one doctrine of demons?
Hebrews 10:
35 Therefore don’t throw away your boldness, which has a great reward.
36 For you need endurance so that, having done the will of God, you may receive the promise.
37 “In a very little while, he who comes will come, and will not wait.
38 But the righteous will live by faith. If he shrinks back, my soul has no pleasure in him.”
39 But we are not of those who shrink back to destruction, but of those who have faith to the saving of the soul.
Are you with me, Rick? Will you choose to overcome as His grace will always enable you to? I invite you to investigate what the Bible really says about who really goes to heaven — and let’s be ONE in Christ — by His blood.
Jeff Fenske
Anchorage, Alaska
Rick
I have to agree brother.
Anonymous
Mr. Schimmel is completely right. It is not matter of earning anything. It is a matter of keeping the faith which sin will erode if one does not abide in the vine which is Christ. Hebrew 3:12-14 says the heart can be hardened that one can depart from the living god. This is why Paul said to fight the good fight of faith. Your in a war. 1st John 2:24 and Colossian 1:21-23. All these scriptures say the exact samething IF YOU CONTINUE, IF YOU ABIDE, IF YOU REMAIN. You are once saved always saved if you continue, abide and remain in the faith. If you don’t you won’t. Heb 10:26-39 clearly shows what happens to a person who pulls up short and will not continue,abide or remain. I commend you Joe for your courage to fully expose this great deception that will damn milllions to hell, thus once saved always saved no matter what is a damnable heresy. OSAS is conditional not unconditional, YOU MUST KEEP THE FAITH FROM START TO FINISH AND NOT LET SIN ERODE IT AWAY.
Dorothy
Joe’s teaching here rejoices my heart. His words and heart are just filled and overflowing with love for our brethren who are living lives that make them appear as no different from the goats and thinking they are still sheep no matter what they do.
Joshua above thinks he is honouring Jesus by insisting that only Jesus saves leaving Jesus to force us obey God whether we want to or not. This is not something evident in anyone’s life I know nor in the church ever at any time not to mention that this violates everything the Bible says of the LORD.
Too bad for Joshua. Oh that he would love the Lord enough to seek to please Him instead of being consumed by thoughts of his own eternal destiny. I would serve and love the Lord if there were no Eternity for me. He is worth it and when you love Him truly, you needn’t worry about where you are going….you are already to some degree there in His presence on a daily basis.
John Vian
I agree with Dorothy, it’s like people are looking for justifications to keep on sinning. So they take the scripture concerning carnal laws and apply them to the laws of God that demands we sin not. If we love Jesus we will keep His commandments, for in them we have wholeness of life and also life eternal. A good tree cannot produce evil fruit nor does an evil tree produce good fruit. Nor will wickedness enter into the kingdom of heaven.
Lynn D.
Once saved always saved is a license to sin and a counterfeit version of “grace” that subtley replaces the Cross of Christ. God’s Word testifies of this again and again!
First of all, I would like to start out on common ground with the typical OSAS proponent. I’m sure we can both agree 100% that a “disciple of Christ” is a true believer. What else can a “disciple” be? Disciple means student or follower. Thus, a disciple of Christ would not be someone who “was never saved to begin with”. The OSAS pet verse: John 10:27-28 clearly says that “His sheep FOLLOW Him” so by their OWN adherence to this verse a “follower” is a born again Christian, right? It couldn’t be someone who “was never saved to begin with” especially not if Jesus Himself called them a “disciple!!” So with that in mind…………
OSAS TEACHERS SAY:
The “conditional security” group holds that it is possible to simply walk away and turn your back on God. To choose to stop following Jesus and that causes the loss of salvation. That the true believer can do this is an impossibility, and is in direct opposition to biblical teaching. —Not so!!
THIS IS WHAT GOD’S WORD SAYS:
“From this time many of His disciples turned back and no longer followed Him (Jn. 6:66). (They were saved disciples who fell away). By your saying that this “is in direct opposition to biblical teaching” you are essentially calling Jesus a liar! There is no way you can twist John 6:66 into “well THOSE ‘disciples’ were never saved to begin with”. HOW WOULD YOU KNOW? DO YOU HAVE DIVINE KNOWLEDGE? THEN YOU DON’T KNOW. (Your whole doctrine is based on a faulty premise!)
OSAS TEACHERS SAY (and only interpret partial truth to God’s Word):
– – “My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me. And I give to them eternal life, and they shall never ever perish, and not anyone shall pluck them out of My hand. My Father who gave them to me is greater than all, and no one is able to pluck them out of My Father’s hand.” JN 10:27-28 JUST HOW DOES THAT NEGATE THEIR OWN FREE WILL OF WALKING AWAY FROM HIM? JESUS DOES NOT FORCE ANYONE TO FOLLOW HIM. I can choose chocolate or vanilla and I can choose God or self! God does not save us by turning us into marionette puppets! He wants us to CHOOSE Him and choosing Him is a DAILY THING.
And as stated earlier, this verse- John 10:27-28 applies to HIS SHEEP who OBEY/FOLLOW HIM, not those who give Him lip service in church before men and go home and live like the world. TO FOLLOW AND OR BELIEVE ON MEANS TO OBEY!! HOW CAN YOU “FOLLOW” HIM IF YOU ARE DOING YOUR OWN THING, FOLLOWING THE CROWD, ACCEPTING THEIR PRAISE AND AREN’T OBEYING HIM WHETHER OR NOT IT’S THE POPULAR THING? NOTHING “SNATCHED” YOU OUT OF HIS HAND, YOU REMOVED YOURSELF FROM IT WHILE DECEPTIVELY BELIEVING YOU ARE “ONCE SAVED ALWAYS SAVED”!! This is Satan’s biggest deception. That is why Jesus will say to many at the judgment: “Depart from Me, I never KNEW YOU!”
GOD SAYS:
“And He became the author of eternal salvation unto all that OBEY Him.” Hebrews 5:9 —What about those [MAJORITY OF] CHRISTIANS who disobey thinking they are “OSAS” and falsely believing that obedience to the Captain of their Salvation is “works”?
Why can’t you preachers and proponents of “eternal security” just teach the WHOLE COUNSEL OF TRUTH instead of trying to hedge and shimmy around it?? (Could it be because you want to hang on to your pet sins, enjoy the praise of men instead of God and ease your conscience while doing so??)
Eternal Security is found ONLY IN JESUS and BEING IN HIM is OBEYING HIM!! JOHN 15:6. “One sin” or 20 sins will not cause us to “lose our salvation” IF WE PRACTICE REGULAR REPENTANCE. If we say we have no sin we are LIARS and the truth is not in us!! REGULAR REPENTANCE and turning away from sin, error and fellowship with false teachers is the key to eternal security. You OSAS proponents imitate the tactics of the Devil by taking two FALSE extremes and pitting them against each other to make your faulty point of “OSAS” (Once saved always saved or One Sin Lost Again). NEither of these extremes is the truth and neither is located in the Word of God!
Common sense tells you that you can’t maintain a relationship with a friend without APOLOGIZING WHEN YOU OFFEND THEM and the same is true with Jesus Christ. We don’t continue to have a real saving relationship with Him if we don’t say we’re sorry when we sin (REPENT) even “little” sins! No one says Christians are “sinless”, we just practice REPENTANCE instead of hiding behind a false doctrine of demons called OSAS! BY PRACTICING REGULAR REPENTANCE WE GROW SPIRITUALLY (instead of growing self-righteously)! WHY CANT YOU JUST TEACH THE WHOLE COUNSEL OF GOD’S WORD?? WITHOUT HOLINESS NO ONE WILL SEE HIM!
You can’t have your cake and eat it to. It’s a law of nature and a law of God. John 15:6 IS ETERNAL SECURITY. Abide in the Vine and you are secure, don’t abide and you wither (die spiritually) and YOU GO TO HELL if you don’t REPENT! SOMETIMES THE TRUTH IS HARSH. Fellowship in a “church” with false brethren is not abiding in the Vine. It’s plain enough for a child to grasp. Go to church on Sunday and Wednesday and live like the rest of the world the rest of your time, falsely believing in and relying on the manmade, demon inspired doctrine called OSAS to “save you” and you will most certainly “FALL FROM YOUR SECURE POSITION”: GOD SAID IT RIGHT HERE: “. . . be on your guard so that you may not be carried away by the error of lawless men and FALL from your secure position” (2 Pet. 3:17). There it is in BLACK AND WHITE. You cannot deny it. Lawlessness is unrepentant sin. So is lying and false teaching! I don’t mean to be unloving but I’m so sick and tired of this false doctrine that is nothing more than a veiled license to sin and an “ear tickler” to sooth the consciences of wicked religious, church going, PHONY HYPOCRITES, no matter how good they make it sound! It turns the grace of Jesus into LEWDNESS or LICSENCE TO SIN(Jude 3,4) IT HAS NEARLY RUINED THE CHURCH!! A half truth is STILL A LIE.
Abiding in and obeying Jesus Christ is the only way one can have “eternal security” AND IT IS NOT “WORK”. THE “WORK” Paul was speaking of was works of the Old Testament Law. James did not contradict him when he said “faith without WORKS IS DEAD.” James was speaking of the “works of obedience” which is REQUIRED OF ALL BELIEVERS. Maintaining humilty and practicing regular repentance before Him because we know we don’t do it perfectly is also a MUST. All have their own free will to choose to remain IN HIM or go their own way. God does not want robots who are “magically” forced to follow Him for all eternity.
“You are THAT ONE’S SERVANT whom you OBEY, whether of SIN leading to death, or RIGHTEOUSNESS leading to eternal life. Romans 6:16 YOU HAVE A CHOICE. EVE HAD A CHOICE. THE FALLEN ANGELS HAD A CHOICE. That ONE VERSE pulverizes and refutes the false doctrine of OSAS along with James 5:19. 2 Pet 2:20, Romans 11:20 AND Heb 10:26. God does not contradict His Plain WORD with 4 or 5 ambiguous verses read OUT OF CONTEXT that false teachers use to support their license to sin: OSAS. And the previous verses and others verses in the Bible are not “for the Jews only”. This is another blatant lie of Satan so the the religious pharisees can justify their own unrighteousness. Either God is lying or those who teach OSAS outside of John 15:6 ARE LYING. Both cannot be true.
Pastors and Teachers will be held to a much higher standard and their judgment will be VERY SEVERE if they continue to teach this horrible heresy! Please stop twisting God’s truth into a manmade doctrine to avoid offending fellow goats and hypocrites who would have their “cake and eat it to.” We are to DIE TO OUR FLESH and surrender this life for the world to come, as Jesus taught! If that means giving up our reputation with the high minded church crowd than so be it!
The CROSS OF CHRIST must be taken up by each individual believer, without it, their is no “OSAS”. Matt 10:38 GOD SAID IT, not me! AND YOU WILL BE HATED BY ALL FOR MY NAME’S SAKE, BUT HE WHO ENDURES TO THE END, SHALL BE SAVED. MATTHEW 10:22 Salvation is a process. “Believing” is not a one hit wonder. Believing is FAITH plus OBEDIENCE otherwise it is the faith of demons “who believe and shudder”. The Biblical defintion of “believe” is CLING TO, FOLLOW and OBEY!
OSAS IS A WIDE,EASY AND UNOFFENSIVE PATH THAT DOES NOT REQUIRE ONE TO TAKE UP HIS CROSS. JESUS SAID THE PATH WAS NARROW AND DIFFICULT. EITHER HE IS LYING OR THOSE WHO TEACH OSAS ARE TEACHING ANOTHER GOSPEL AND FALSE GRACE.
HE WHO SPEAKS TRUTH DECLARES RIGHTEOUSNESS.
“When I say unto the wicked, thou shalt surely die, and thou givest him not warning, nor speakest to warn the wicked from his wicked way, to save his life, the same wicked man shall die in his iniquity, but HIS BLOOD WILL I REQUIRE AT THINE HAND.” Ezekial 3:18
“THE SOUL THAT SINNETH, IT SHALL DIE.” Ezekial 18:20
“When the righteous turneth AWAY (free will/choice) from his righteousness, and committeth iniquity, and doeth according to all the abominations that the wicked man doeth, shall he LIVE (OSAS??) ALL HIS RIGHTEOUSNESS THAT HE HATH DONE SHALL NOT BE REMEMBERED: IN HIS TRESPASS THAT HE HATH TRESPASSED, AND IN HIS SIN THAT HE HATH SINNED, IN THEM HE SHALL DIE.” Ezekial 18:24
EZEKIAL IS NOT “OLD TESTAMENT LAW! OR ONLY FOR THE JEWS.” EZEKIAL IS ONE OF GOD’S PROPHETS THAT CAME BEFORE!
“HEED THE PROPHETS THAT CAME BEFORE.” 2 Peter 3:2 Either God LIED in His Word or OSAS IS A DOCTRINE OF DEMONS.
Dorothy
When asking why OSASers believe this I encountered interesting information from Dr. Stanley’s website and history. He came upon this doctrine in this thinking at a time when he was struggling with fear of losing his salvation. It met an emotional need in his life. But it did NOT come out of a study of the Bible nor typical revelation of the its meaning by the Holy Spirit as seen, for example in the life of Martin Luther whose experience saw him reading the text and having it speak suddenly and very loudly to him personally. (I am sure all true believers have had this happen at one time or another when reading the Word.) Stanley was afraid and found that if he chose to believe he could never lose his salvation he needn’t be afraid. This is definately coming from a man made souce (at best) and definately not from a revelation of scripture.
He then went on to find the scripture to match his much-comforting theory. This is probably why they cling to it emotionally. To let it go means to be obligated to actively follow the Lord instead of sitting back and enjoying the ride assured of the eternal destiny. Too bad so many do not realize that God is not obligated to make choices according to our theory but is always true to His ways and word. In other words, just because they think it is so does not mean it is so.
joshua james
Oh I am so happy that people started this thread. First if Dorothy ever comes back to this video. Please “not too bad for Josh!”. God truly blesses me daily. I have been a Christian since 1983. I was born again the Monday after Thanksgiving. Let me give a few more thought provoking questions. Can a person be born again twice? Does not God do the choosing (saving)? Where does faith come from? Oh the religious world, always trying to get credit for something they did? Always saying “if only I do this (work) or that work” He will save me. Man always wants to take credit! When people want to enslave a person they give them this doctrine that Joe is teaching. Praise God, I am free in Christ Jesus. His finished work on the cross was enough to paid the price in full. No man or Pharisee will dangle the carrot of religion over me. May God show you the truth? Then you can be free. Not free to sin! If you keep working for you salvation, then Christ died for nothing!
Also I wonder why people have to shout. You know caps! I hardly think this is fitting for a Christian!
Dorothy
Dear Josh,
I am glad you are happy but you still do not seem to get what I mean. Your focus is still on you and your feelings. You are the center of your focus.
No one I know of is working for their salvation. We are working to please God whom we love. Get it? Our focus is pleasing him, not earning something for us.
That is the difference between us.
Jeff Fenske
Joshua,
What does the Bible say?
Jeff
Jake
Joshua,
You apparently believe that a true believer can never fall away. So, I am wondering if you can explain why the writer of the verses below used phrases like, “if you continue” or “if you hold fast”?
Col 1:23 “…if indeed you continue in the faith, grounded and steadfast, and are not moved away from the hope of the gospel which you heard, which was preached to every creature under heaven, of which I, Paul, became a minister.”
Heb 3:6 “…but Christ as a Son over His own house, whose house we are if we hold fast the confidence and the rejoicing of the hope firm to the end.”
Heb 3:14 “For we have become partakers of Christ if we hold the beginning of our confidence steadfast to the end…”
From a logics perspective, the use of the word “if” indicates that there is more than one possible outcome. What is the purpose of making a conditional statement (“if”) if there is no possibility of each of the outcomes being true (e.g., “continuing” or “not continuing”, etc.)? If there were only one outcome possible, then the conditional statement is frivolous.
Lynn D.
In reference to Joshua’s comment “I wonder why people have to shout, you know caps it’s not fitting for a Christian…” Um, Tell Jesus it wasn’t fitting for Him to shout at the money changers in the temple for turning it into a den of thieves. Tell Him also it wasn’t “Christian” for Him to take a whip to them and knock over their tables. Tell John the Baptist it wasn’t “Christian” for him to call the hypocrites a “brood of vipers.” Tell the Apostle Paul it wasn’t Christian for him to “rebuke them sharply”. Maybe if you and all the OSASers would concentrate on the Word of God and WHAT IT SAYS instead of pointing out my righteous indignation at the blasphemous, false teaching of OSAS, which calls my Savior a liar, you would realize why I’m “zealous for the truth” as the Bible says that all true believers should be. If you love Someone deeply and lies are being told about that Someone, which slander His Words and make Him a liar, it should make you VERY ZEALOUS TO CORRECT THE SLANDERERS. “Beware, lest ye also, being led away with the error of the wicked, FALL FROM YOUR SECURE POSITION.” 2 Pet 3:17 You can’t “Fall” if you “were never saved to begin with.”
A ZEALOUS Servant of Jesus Christ
Lynn D.
Richard1965
Zeal without Knowledge…
Lynn D.
For those of you who are offended by my zeal for the truth, please forgive me. It is not my intention to offend anyone, however, Jude 3,4 clearly commands all true Christians to “contend earnestly for the faith” and I have been fighting against Satan’s false grace doctrine (OSAS) ever since the Holy Spirit baptized me and clearly showed me the truth in God’s Word. The truth is crystal clear, however, the OSAS crowd listens to preachers and teachers rather than searching the Scriptures for themselves (Acts 17:11) and then when they do look in the Scriptures, it is through the “lens” of what the preachers have already told them! We are instructed in the Bible to “become a fool that we might become wise” and that means to allow God to teach us Himself, not seminary trained theologians and televangelists.
Once Saved Always Saved is surely Satan’s greatest masterpiece. This doctrine claims that one can be “in Christ,” while willingly dead in “trespasses and sins. ” This doctrine openly tramples the blood of the Savior underfoot and calls it “grace”. It is rooted in unbelief, seeing that they deny that Christ has any power to deliver the believer FROM his sins, here and now. The Bible tells us that Jesus came to destroy the work of the devil, and to save His people from their sins, not in their sins Matt 1:1. A Savior who cannot live up to his promises to deliver us from our sins in this life cannot be depended upon to deliver us after our death! I am uncomfortably confident that at the consummation of time, it will be revealed that this sole doctrine alone will have populated the regions of hell far more than all other false teachings put together.
This doctrine promotes SELF-righteousness, not godliness, and removes all motives to abstain from sin……only to HIDE it. It completely contradicts hundreds of clear verses in Scripture and it boasts in the perseverance of the “saints” ….(sinners!), while it believes in no saint but one, that is, Jesus, and neglects to persevere. So in essence, these “Christians” follow and imitate Satan and his false and haughty religious spirit, yet expect the Holy Spirit to “lead” them into sin while Jesus Christ saves them and God the Father calls them “His children”!!
For whom ye yield yourselves, servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey.” (Rom. 6:16) If we are compelled, therefore, to yield ourselves servants to sin, and be subject to Satan’s power, insomuch that we cannot help but obey him, and really have “no choice” in the matter, then our free agency, our volition, is destroyed; and to make matters worse, if this is true, then that would mean that the devil has more power than God. Satan can make us disobey God, but alas, God, who according to OSAS “takes away our free will and makes it His will” cannot make us disobey Satan! What a pathetic “God” that is!! The devil compels us to be sinners, but God cannot compel us to be righteous, even though He has made our will His will!! Can you see the absolute absurdity? If not, Satan has blinded your mind for sure! –2 Cor 4:4
It is manifestly improper to assemble with “believers” who see nothing desirable in holiness. (2 Jn 9:11) [Without holiness, NO ONE will see the Lord. Hebrews 12:14] Was Jesus lying when He inspired these Words? Do you see any “exception clauses” here? Anyone who can say (or show by their actions), “God does not require me to be holy”………. cannot be a true born again, believer in Christ. He or she is following ANOTHER christ, which is a FALSE christ! The doctrine of Eternal Security is not the “Gospel” as the wolves teach, it is a theological argument invented by John Calvin (who was a mass murderer). It is not a Biblical doctrine. It is a theological invention, NO WHERE to be found in the Holy Bible, (other than Satan’s original lie to Eve in Genesis). If Eternal Security is true, all the fallen angels, the Devil, Hitler, and every human that’s ever lived will be saved since there “was nothing they could do to be saved and nothing they could do to lose it”. This is teaching so incredibly absurd it defies basic common sense, even if one is devoid of the Spirit! It would be laughable if it weren’t so deadly to so many, who follow it’s broad, easy path to destruction.
The only way that Once Saved, Always Saved can be attached to select Bible verses is to “read it into” them. It is an extra-Biblical, external philosophy, seeking Biblical sanction. People are “educated into” OSAS, just as truly as atheists are “educated into” atheism, camelites are educated into baptismal regeneration, Catholics are educated into Mary-ism, Mormons are educated into the “Angel Morani-ism”, Pentecostals are educated in “tongue-ism”, etc. The Bible is clear, abide in Christ, THE WORD, John 1:1, practice repentance and righteousness (not willful sin), obey the leading of the Holy Spirit and endure to the end and you shall be saved. John 15:6 and Matt 10:22 You can’t have it both ways. “Once Saved, Always Saved” completely contradicts the plain Word of God and MAKES JESUS A LIAR. I’m sorry to “shout” but this doctrine is very offensive to me because I’m very jeolous for the Truth of my Savior!! Christians are told to “preach the Word” 2 Tim 4:2. (I’m sure Joshua has never heard a preacher shout! That wouldn’t be “Christian” would it?)
IF WE DENY HIM, HE WILL DENY US. 2 TIM 2:12
IF I REGARD INIQUITY IN MY HEART, THE LORD WILL NOT HEAR. PSALM 66:18
AND THOSE WHO ARE CHRIST’S HAVE CRUCIFIED THE FLESH WITH IT’S PASSIONS AND DESIRES. GAL 5:24
SIN NO MORE, LEST A WORSE THING COME UPON THEE. JOHN 5:14
LET HIM WHO THINKS HE STANDS TAKE HEED, LEST HE FALL. 1 COR 10:12
WORK OUT YOUR OWN SALVATION WITH FEAR AND TREMBLING. PHIL 2:12
Richard1965
Read Very Carefully, it is trying to say something:
Rom 7:1 Are ye ignorant, brethren–for to those knowing law I speak–that the law hath lordship over the man as long as he liveth?
Rom 7:2 for the married woman to the living husband hath been bound by law, and if the husband may die, she hath been free from the law of the husband;
Rom 7:3 so, then, the husband being alive, an adulteress she shall be called if she may become another man’s; and if the husband may die, she is free from the law, so as not to be an adulteress, having become another man’s.
Rom 7:4 So that, my brethren, ye also were made dead to the law through the body of the Christ, for your becoming another’s, who out of the dead was raised up, that we might bear fruit to God;
Rom 7:5 for when we were in the flesh, the passions of the sins, that are through the law, were working in our members, to bear fruit to the death;
Rom 7:6 and now we have ceased from the law, that being dead in which we were held, so that we may serve in newness of spirit, and not in oldness of letter.
Rom 7:7 What, then, shall we say? the law is sin? let it not be! but the sin I did not know except through law, for also the covetousness I had not known if the law had not said:
Rom 7:8 `Thou shalt not covet;’ and the sin having received an opportunity, through the command, did work in me all covetousness–for apart from law sin is dead.
Rom 7:9 And I was alive apart from law once, and the command having come, the sin revived, and I died;
Rom 7:10 and the command that is for life, this was found by me for death;
Rom 7:11 for the sin, having received an opportunity, through the command, did deceive me, and through it did slay me ;
Rom 7:12 so that the law, indeed, is holy, and the command holy, and righteous, and good.
Rom 7:13 That which is good then, to me hath it become death? let it not be! but the sin, that it might appear sin, through the good, working death to me, that the sin might become exceeding sinful through the command,
Rom 7:14 for we have known that the law is spiritual, and I am fleshly, sold by the sin;
Rom 7:15 for that which I work, I do not acknowledge; for not what I will, this I practise, but what I hate, this I do.
Rom 7:16 And if what I do not will, this I do, I consent to the law that it is good,
Rom 7:17 and now it is no longer I that work it, but the sin dwelling in me,
Rom 7:18 for I have known that there doth not dwell in me, that is, in my flesh, good: for to will is present with me, and to work that which is right I do not find,
Rom 7:19 for the good that I will, I do not; but the evil that I do not will, this I practise.
Rom 7:20 And if what I do not will, this I do, it is no longer I that work it, but the sin that is dwelling in me.
Rom 7:21 I find, then, the law, that when I desire to do what is right, with me the evil is present,
Rom 7:22 for I delight in the law of God according to the inward man,
Rom 7:23 and I behold another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of the sin that is in my members.
Rom 7:24 A wretched man I am ! who shall deliver me out of the body of this death?
Rom 7:25 I thank God–through Jesus Christ our Lord; so then, I myself indeed with the mind do serve the law of God, and with the flesh, the law of sin.
Jeff Fenske
Richard,
You just dropped possibly the most depressing chapter in the whole New Testament when read apart from Romans 8), in its entirety without even making your point. This doesn’t seem very kind to me.
I will say something about Romans 7, though.
Paul couldn’t overcome sin in chapter 7 because he didn’t have the Holy Spirit yet. Romans 8 is another story altogether, because this is about life in the Son:
1 There is therefore now no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus, who don’t walk according to the flesh, but according to the Spirit. 2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus made me free from the law of sin and of death. 3 For what the law couldn’t do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God did, sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh and for sin, he condemned sin in the flesh; 4 that the ordinance of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
The NIV and other Westcott/Hort-based translations omit verse 1b (where Paul explains specifically what “in Christ” really is — where there is no condemnation because we’re really in Christ); though, the concept is stated in verse 4 in the non-Textus-Receptus-based versions.
Jeff Fenske
Diane
AWESOME TEACHING!!!
Yes, I am shouting Josh! LOL
Lynn, kudos for your diligence in studying to show yourself approved and for rightly dividing the word of truth.
OSAS is the greatest LIE ever told and I have left my church because God opened my eyes to their heretical, “easy believism” doctrine of demons.
WHY can’t pastors today just take God at His Word?
I guess JUDE told us why. Clouds without water, spots in our love feasts…. having not the Spirit—–OUCH! Oh, and let’s not forget, they are greedy for gain and as my former pastor said- they are trying to appeal to the masses.
I say: Galatians 1:10 to that.
GOD BLESS YOU ALL WHO REFUTE THIS DIABOLICAL DOCTRINE FROM HELL.
In Christ.
Diane Couture
Richard1965
If they do not have the Spirit then how can they be considered Christians?…
Jeff
The doctrine of eternal security sure does sound good on paper… too bad it’s not parchment paper! The Church needs to wake up from the nightmare of OSAS… It truly is a salvation issue, obeying God is not “works”, but a requirement of a true Jesus follower.
Richard1965
Then the Jews were right, no one need Christ because they all had the Law for their Salvation and it is obviously still that way….If you obey it then you have no worries…
Kyle
The problem with this OSAS is from which perspective you come from. As a Monergist I believe in the Preservation of the Saints and in no way would ever believe that man can lose his salvation. However, As good as Joe Schimmel is regarding many doctrines he is woefully ignorant on this one.
First, I would like to say that Arminianism could easily go either way in regards to having the ability to lose your salvation or OSAS seeing that Arminianism makes man the ultimate decider of things. However, monergism gives ALL the glory to God and his divine sovereignty.
Let us look at a few scriptures that support the Preservation of the Saints.
John 6:37-39
“All that the Father gives Me will come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I will certainly not cast out.
“For I have come down from heaven, not to do My own will, but the will of Him who sent Me.
“This is the will of Him who sent Me, that of all that He has given Me I lose nothing, but raise it up on the last day.”
John 10:28
I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one can snatch them out of my hand.
Rom. 8:29–30
For those God foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the likeness of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brothers. And those he predestined, he also called; those he called, he also justified; those he justified, he also glorified.
Romans 8:33-35
Who will bring any charge against those whom God has chosen? It is God who justifies. Who is he that condemns? Christ Jesus, who died—more than that, who was raised to life—is at the right hand of God and is also interceding for us. Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? Shall trouble or hardship or persecution or famine or nakedness or danger or sword?
Eph. 1:3–14
Praise be to the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us in the heavenly realms with every spiritual blessing in Christ. For he chose us in him before the creation of the world to be holy and blameless in his sight. In love he predestined us to be adopted as his sons through Jesus Christ, in accordance with his pleasure and will to the praise of his glorious grace, which he has freely given us in the One he loves. In him we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, in accordance with the riches of God’s grace that he lavished on us with all wisdom and understanding. And he made known to us the mystery of his will according to his good pleasure, which he purposed in Christ, to be put into effect when the times will have reached their fulfillment—to bring all things in heaven and on earth together under one head, even Christ.
In him we were also chosen, having been predestined according to the plan of him who works out everything in conformity with the purpose of his will, in order that we, who were the first to hope in Christ, might be for the praise of his glory. And you also were included in Christ when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation. Having believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God’s possession—to the praise of his glory.
I could give more but for brevity sake I think this is pretty solid. However, let me show you who the backsliders (so-called) or the fallen away (so-called) really are.
I John 2:19
They went out from us, but they did not really belong to us. For if they had belonged to us, they would have remained with us; but their going showed that none of them belonged to us.
In other words, they never “really” were saved in the first place.
Kyle
Richard
I would say that he is ignorant of the Sovreignty of God…Even Arminius was spot on on a lot of things but when it came to the Sovreignty of God he was of the mark on it…I’d say this is why in 1619, i think, The Synod of Dort reaffirmed Calvin’s Five Points and rejected Arminius’ Five Points…If memory serves it took over a year for the counsel to come to that conclusion, so it was not just a quick decision based on the good old boy sstem or because the counsel was a fervent supporter of Calvin…
Jeff Fenske
Richard,
God *sovereignly* chose to give us free will so we decide if we’re going to actually live in Christ or not.
I explain in comment #17 that the doctrine that claims that God DECIDES who goes to heaven and WHO GOES TO HELL (and this is supposed to give God more glory because He is totally sovereign) is possibly the most abominable and disgusting doctrines of demons ever taught.
And Calvin didn’t get it, by the way: http://en.wordpress.com/tag/calvin-didnt-get-it.
Jeff Fenske
Jeff Fenske
Kyle,
Please give me a day or two and I’ll give you a full response.
3/11/09
I actually wrote most of my response a few days ago, but have been thinking more about this, because this is so important. This morning, I got a new idea as how to better present this information. I may need a few days yet.
3/14/09
As we see the fall of the U.S. right before our very eyes, this issue for me is even more woefully tragic and disheartening, because “once saved, always saved” (and its “we don’t have to be right with people and God to go to heaven” relatives) is at the core of the problem.
This is The Greatest Deception, the greatest doctrinal tragedy that exists today—the greatest twisting of Paul’s words—missing the main point of what Christianity is.
Christianity is relationship, right relationships—not some mathematical formula that ignores the heart of what Paul had to say, time after time, letter after letter.
How is it even possible to watch this video and call Joe Schimmel “woefully ignorant?” Joe cites many verses that even by themselves totally refute OSAS, and he understands Kyle’s arguments fully. He’s read “Life in the Son” and “Elect in the Son” by Robert Shank, etc., which I would suggest OSAS adherents read. I’ve talked with Joe about this. He understands the Calvinist perspective fully. It’s not like you’re illuminating him in any way here.
But how do we break out of this deception when it’s so deeply emotionally embraced that many have a hard time even hearing what Joe and others have to say?
Maybe The Greatest Deception bringing us into The Greatest Depression will help. Maybe we’ll finally get it.
“It’s hard for a rich man to enter into the kingdom of heaven.” Maybe we’ve been too rich. Perhaps loosing everything will help us gain what really matters in the long run—the kingdom of heaven!
I have written most of the scriptural response to this charge against Joe, but I’m still pondering this whole thing and will present my full response soon. Much of the problem is due to the way Paul’s letters are read. Systematic theology can be a useful hermeneutic tool, but Biblical theology should be the main method, reading the texts the way they are meant to be read.
Sincerely,
jeff
3/21/09
If anyone is still awaiting my response, I apologize. It’s been rough this past week. I must be over the target, or something. I need some relaxing quiet time to do this correctly. I truly have long ago written everything except for 1 John and the something special I’d like to do with Ephesians.
I still think about this every day, and hope to do this soon.
[My response is in comment #17, below]
Jeff
Richard
Remember Paul also argued against the Judaisers that were deceiving people into legalism saying that they not only had to believe in Christ but also become circumsized and follow the Law…Paul seen this as an insult to Christ’s Sacrifice and said Salvation is by Grace not of works if it were of works it would no longer be Grace…It is also stated in scripture that we are free of the Law, so the Law has no more hold on us…If Christ paid the price for our sins and God turned around and made us pay for our sin also, then what would be the point of Christ’s sacrifice?…The Jews had the Law and knew what they were supposed to do accordingly…If as a Christian one is required to follow the Law then what was the point…the Jews and prosletytes were already doing that…So there is no need for Christ…Christ came for the Lost…the words Election, Chosen, Predestinated are used in Scripure…Which would indicate that there are those that are unelected, unchosen and not predestinated…To many folks want to take credit for what God alone does…Satan says that you are in charge of your own destiny not God…There are many people in the Old Testament that seemed to have the will to walk righteous, so, we should also today have that will without Christ’s sacrifice…seems logical…If they could do it in the Old Testamrnt, which was way before the Sacrifice of Christ, then the ability has always been there even now…So, why the need for Christ?…Paul says by the Law no flesh will be saved…Paul also says that we have liberty in Christ to do all things but everything is benificial…He also says that we should not use that liberty to sin…Obviously Paul knew what Salvation was all about and the people who listened to him understood also…and that would be the reason he had to make the point of not using the Liberty in Christ as a licsence to sin…And James’ point of dead Faith was a comparative statement, you say you have Faith, then you would be striving to do God’s Will, if you are not then your Faith is dead (self generated, not from God)because good works follow true saving Faith…If the ultimate saving end were left in the individuals hand, then no one would make it…God perserveres those He has chosen…If one can lose Salvation then what was the point of the whole thing with Christ and His Sacrifice?…It is meaningless…And the Jews were right about what they wrote regarding Christ…I can create many doctrines from the Bible but i cannot use the whole Bible to support them only parts of the Bible…When i read the whole of a Book or Letter of the Bible i then see the point the author is making and i also see the kinds of doctrines i can create if i take verses out of context as i have seen people do numerous times…God is stong and able to do what He says He will do…so i believe him when He says it is not of the will of man or the man that runneth, but God who shows mercy…one is not chosen based on works or based on God seeing into the future and seeing that that person will believe then writing their name in the Book of Life…it is because He ordained it so…and God will bring all to pass according to his Will, not ours…Paul said with his mind he delighted in the Law of God but with his flesh he served the Law of sin…Paul was speaking from a saved man position because of the fact that he said that he delighted in the law of God…the natural man does not delight in God’s Law nor he able to do so…So, what is to become of Paul?…Well, he thanks God for Jesus Christ and says that is no longer he who sins but sin living in him…There are people that know that they are unworthy of God’s Grace and Salvation and then there are those that believe that they must make themselves worthy…One is a Salvation of Grace and the other is a Salvation of works…
Jeff Fenske
Richard,
You’re not totally understanding where I’m coming from.
If you haven’t already, you will probably find answers to all of your questions and comments at Who-Goes-To-Heaven Scriptures — Narrow is the Way http://onecanhappen.com/2008/01/14/who-goes-to-heaven-scriptures
Calvinism and OSAS is mostly taken from Paul’s introductory statements, which is hardly sound hermeneutics.
I’ve also recently posted: Who are the Children of God? http://onecanhappen.com/2010/01/30/who-are-the-children-of-god
Jeff Fenske
Anne
LYNN D., DIANE COUTURE, AND JEFF FENSKE~ YOU GUYS ARE AWESOME IN THE WILL OF THE LORD!!!!! WOW…IF YOU GUYS EVER GET SOME TIME COULD YOU PLEASE COME AND FIGHT FOR TRUTH ON ‘ChristiaNet’ BLOG SITE. THERE ARE BLOGS SUCH AS ‘CAN YOU LOSE YOUR SALVATON’, ‘OSAS’ BLOG, ETERNAL SECURITY BLOG, CAN YOU LOSE YOUR SEAL BLOG ETC.
WE COULD USE YOUR AMAZING ZEALOUSNESS AND TALENTS FOR REACHING COUNTLESS PEOPLE WITH THE TRUTH OF GOD. I AM TRYING TO ‘FIGHT THE FIGHT’ ON THERE, BUT THE CALVINIST TEACHINGS ON THERE ARE NUMEROUS, AND WE NEED MORE ZEALOUS FIGHTERS FOR TRUTH LIKE YOU GUYS!!
GOD BLESS YOU AND KEEP UP THE GREAT WORK. I HOPE TO SEE YOU ON ‘ChristiaNet’ BLOGS SOON!!!
ANNE
gator
Joashua is correct, and on this matter of who choses whom, my dear friend and bro in Christ Joe Schimmel is incorrect. It is not a matter of OSAS, or a matter of treating Christ’s blood as a common thing and using His grace as a license for sin and still thinking oneself to be a Christian – this is not what Scripture teaches, nor what Calvin believed. It is not of him who wills, or choses, but of Yhwh in Christ who calls and chooses and will not lose; the question that predestination asks is, “are you truly in Christ in the first place?” If one be truly in Christ, and has passed from death to life in Christ and thus is one that the Father has given His Son, those of whom it is impossible for the Son to lose even one, then the matter at hand is the validity of ones salvation in the first, and last place. Those who believe Calvin’s doctrines to be the same as Christ’s doctrines on the mater of TULIP, barring of course those loosely knitted “hyper-Calvinists”, believe that the life of a true Christian will be displayed in the increasing manifestation of a life of holiness and departure from sin, being worked out of a fear of God and sorrow for sin that worketh repentance, and such repentance that leads to eternal life, which is Christ. To say that Christ can lose even one the Father has given Him, is to call Christ Himself a liar, and to deny the Gospel of Jesus. Hence, it is not a matter of someone losing something, it is a matter of whether they ever had it (eternal life) in the first place. Only those that finish the race and run it according to the rules will receive the crown of life. Christ told us that we must be doers of the Word and not hearers only, or else we deceive ourselves. He also told us to “go and sin no more”… He has said that if we say we know Him, and continue to sin, we have neither known Him or seen Him, and the Truth be not in us, but on the contrary, we are liars.
To say a Born Again son of the Son of God can lose his or her salvation is a lie from the pit of hell, and a mockery of Christ Himself, and an aversion of the Gospel and is contrary to Scripture and to the very person and Words of Christ Himself; it is also to call Christ a liar and a fool, and to say a person can be tried twice for the same crime, when once they have been acquitted of all charges and their case dismissed.
To say we choose Christ is to be opposite of Scripture; it is the same as saying a dead man can chose life, or can raise himself from the dead; it is a lie and it teaches that Christ’s work was not needed nor sufficient, and it is at the very heart of it, a develish appeal to ones pride; to think more highly of oneself than we aught, to say the least.
May all who hear His voice and have been confused on this issue be hereby encouraged and given clarity in the Holy Spirit, and may each of us walk this earth in holiness and righteousness, not to earn our salvation, but in evidence that we Truly have seen and know Him in the first place, for the sake of the elect, and to the glory of Elyon in Jeshua.
To Christ Alone be the Glory and Honor,
gator
Jeff Fenske
Gator,
This is what we’re taught. “This is all disinfo,” the way it is spun to deceive people into thinking we can be “in Christ” without really being in Christ.
Please investigate what the Bible really says: Who-Goes-To-Heaven Scriptures — Narrow is the Way.
It may be particularly helpful to see what Paul actually says in Romans 8 about who really is “in Christ.” Consider what Romans 8 really says verses what we’ve been taught it says, and then consider that this has been done to us with many other scriptures as well.
You also may be interested to see how John Calvin really lived in my Calvin didn’t get it posts.
We’ve been led astray for generations, much of this starting with Luther.
“It’s time to smell the roses,” I believe God is saying.
Jeff Fenske
Richard
It does not matter how Calvin lived…it does not negate the validity of what he wrote…If i committed adultry and then turned around to you who saw me do it and said you should not commit adultry, would you believe me?…probaly not, you would say why should you believe me for i am an adulterer so my word holds no water, but, in fact my actions do not nulify what God has said concerning adultry…So, trying to pick apart John Calvin still does not negate what God said…
Jeff Fenske
Richard,
It sure does matter. John Calvin was disqualified to be an overseer according to the elders qualifications in 1 Timothy and Titus.
It’s not surprising that he wasn’t led by the Holy Spirit into sound doctrine, so came up with doctrines of demons instead.
According to the Bible, the Holy Spirit is supposed to “lead us into all truth,” but only those who are truly “in Christ” will know His voice.
The demons will flee when we don’t give them a place. But hate, anger (and even murder in Calvin’s case) is demon driven. Calvin was a demon-driven man. He was led by demons, which is true of many clergy and ‘Christians’ today also.
Jeff Fenske
Jeff Fenske
Kyle,
Sorry for taking so long to respond. What I realized was what you said reminded me of how cold were the sidewalks at seminary, largely because of this very strange and disparaging-toward-God doctrine that you also believe.
You said:
Oh boy! Many professors at seminary taught this doctrine. They also say that believing that God is sovereign gives God maximum glory, and they accuse those who disagree of taking glory from God. But just the opposite is true.
This doctrine that accuses God of solely deciding who will go to heaven and to hell almost makes me gag. It’s just so disgustingly repulsive to me that this is the only comment posted so far on theology that I really didn’t want anything to do with, and so put it on the back burner….
This doesn’t give glory to God, this sucks glory from God — if this were true of God.
How can a righteous judge condemn people who were pre-condemned by him, who never had even a tiny chance to be saved? This does a great disservice to Jesus’ death on the cross and the Father-heart of God. How could someone love such a God? I wonder if there are many who believe this doctrine who really do.
1 Timothy 2:
This is God’s heart. To say otherwise may be one of the most vile things — that human beings created in the image of God would be tormented for all eternity in hell because God solely decided this would be his/her fate??
And this doctrine (especially along with the belief of cessationism) makes for certain seminary sidewalks to be one of the most frigid places on the planet. Those of us who believed otherwise were shunned (we could feel the hate), while the professors chummed up to the Calvinists.
One of my professors actually taught that we just think we have free will, that God can only know the future because He controls everybody. This would make Him an ogre, a puppeteer — not much unlike the Greek gods. Is this the God (god) you serve? Why do you believe such nonsense?
The truth is that God has sovereignly determined (He decided) to give us free will. He has sovereingly chosen not to solely control each man’s destiny. We are responsible for our eternal destination, not Him.
He “desires ALL PEOPLE to be saved and come to full knowledge of the truth.”
I wonder if you even listened to Joe Schimmel’s entire presentation — or if you did, did you listen with ears to hear, an open heart? Joe recited from multiple texts: ~”If you [do this] then….”
It is unfair to God to base one’s theology on a few unclear texts when there are so many crystal clear texts that say just the opposite of what you claim.
I do recommend reading: “Life in the Son” and “Elect in the Son,” by Robert Shank.
And as far as your quotes from Romans 8, please read the rest of Romans 8, and perhaps how I treat it in my Who-Goes-To-Heaven Scriptures — Narrow is the Way article.
Regarding the oft-quoted John 10:28 (…no one can snatch them out of my hand), please read Jeff Patton’s article: The CHIEF PILLAR of Eternal Security (OSAS) Toppled!
OSAS and monergism are clearly doctrines of demons. It’s interesting that the only NT theology professor at seminary who followed the Arminian perspective is the professor who taught hermeneutics. It isn’t possible to come up with such a doctrine when using sound hermeneutical principles of interpretation.
I wonder if Calvinists are really interested in hermeneutics — and especially being led by the Holy Spirit, which is a condition for going to heaven according to Romans 8 and elsewhere.
And just look at the fruit of this doctrine. It’s generally not pretty.
Let’s live “in Christ” — not doing our own thing which leads to death — not to mention how many get turned off….
This is a monstrous tragedy.
Jeff Fenske
Richard
Pharoa did not have a chance, in fact God said He raised up Pharoa for this very purpose…the reason people are turned off is because they do not want to believe that their destiny is not in their own hands…You should actually study the Doctrine instead of spouting what others have said…i see where you get all your theology from…You get it from man…all the articles you are telling people to read are of men…who twist scripture to their own desruction…Joh 1:3 all things through him did happen, and without him happened not even one thing that hath happened. G1096
γίνομαι
ginomai
ghin’-om-ahee
A prolonged and middle form of a primary verb; to cause to be (“gen” -erate), that is, (reflexively) to become (come into being), used with great latitude (literally, figuratively, intensively, etc.): – arise be assembled, be (come, -fall, -have self), be brought (to pass), (be) come (to pass), continue, be divided, be done, draw, be ended, fall, be finished, follow, be found, be fulfilled, + God forbid, grow, happen, have, be kept, be made, be married, be ordained to be, partake, pass, be performed, be published, require, seem, be showed, X soon as it was, sound, be taken, be turned, use, wax, will, would, be wrought.
Jeff Fenske
Richard,
How do you know where I got my doctrine from?
And I choose to not to derive doctrine from a few Old Covenant examples which none of us fully understand anyway.
For example: Pharoah’s heart was already hard (Ex. 9:17).
And maybe he just allowed the demons to harden Pharoah’s heart further by keeping angels from interfering with what the demons would otherwise do.
But if God somehow directly hardened Pharoah’s heart, this is by far the exception, rather than the rule.
It’s not sound hermeneutics to assume a generality based upon isolated incidents.
Jeff Fenske
Joshua James
Wow, I can’t believe that this link is still going! And I am glad I found it again. I guess that I didn’t click the boxes on the bottom! But I did this time. Why is it that man is always trying to play a part in the finished work of Christ……. You have no boast, only in Jesus Christ and your weakness! That’s it! You can not boast in your salvation. For God saved you! You can not boast in works. Because salvation it’s not from you. God chose you from the beginning. Look it up. People always think they have to perform some work to be saved. If I am only this good? People are always trying to work there way to God. That’s what makes Christianity different from other religions. Christ did the work. Sure, proof that we really are saved is that we will do good works. But that not in ourselves. You will have a nervous breakdown, wondering what side of the scale you are on. Scripture shows us that we can know we are saved. We can rest in the assurance that Christ paid the price. Instead of trying to work, to get salvation. Seek first His kingdom, it’s freeing to know that you can rest in Christ……By works you will never have peace that God’s Word speaks about. Salvation is not a license to sin, the Apostle Paul is very clear about this. But there is freedom in Christ! If you are in Love with God through His Son, why would you want to sin………Love you all! Get off the scale and follow Christ Jesus!………If we are still under the law, then Christ died for nothing……Oh, we all sin, everyday. Can you tell me that you can say that you honestly Love the Lord you God with all your heart in everything you do?
Jeff Fenske
Joshua,
Who’s boasting? I certainly am not. And I don’t see Joe boasting one bit. He’s just saying what the Bible says, what most pastors won’t teach: the many warnings the New Testament gives over and over….
Perhaps you haven’t read my post which shows what the Bible says about who goes to heaven: Who-Goes-To-Heaven Scriptures — Narrow is the Way. This is what the Bible says without a lot of commentary by myself.
It’s pretty clear. Christ did the work. We get forgiven by accepting His free gift — but it only stays valid for us if we stay in Him. The Bible says this over and over in many ways. And the Bible says in many places who goes to heaven. It’s in my article. The scriptures speak for themselves. But they don’t get preached much in America.
And we won’t “get a nervous breakdown, wondering” when we know we’re right with Christ and right with each other — abiding. If we’re not right we should be worried, we should be fearful because we’re in the danger zone (the fear of the Lord is the beginning of wisdom) — the place of not abiding, the place of willful rebellion — the place of sinning the sins that lead to death. The place of abiding is the place of peace — the place of rest — knowing that we are in him — our conscience not condemning us.
About being under the law. Paul explains this in many places, particularly Gal. 5, in which he says: “if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under the law.” And then he talks about who are “Christ’s” and who are not.
“Do not be deceived,” Joe Schimmel says over and over — because the Bible says it over and over. He’s just reading the Bible.
Regarding your last phrase, Jesus didn’t say that if we don’t love Him with all of our heart, soul, mind and strength we won’t go to heaven, and I don’t say this either. But this is the greatest commandment, and John sets a somewhat similar standard in 1 John 2, if you want to go there. I haven’t quoted this particular text in my Who-Goes… post, but let’s take a look at it:
What do you make of these three paragraphs?
#1 — a place of forgiveness, an atoning sacrifice if we sin
#2 — how we know that we are in Him. We must keep His commandments…. John doesn’t say: “because you’ve been born-again,” or “because you’ve been saved.”
#3 — we must love our brother (Jesus’ second greatest commandment). NO HATE (my license plates read)
At the very least, paragraph #2 “this is how we know that we know Him” requires that we don’t hate our fellow humans. We need to love people, not hate, or we can’t say that we know Him.
And hating people is also in Paul’s who-won’t-inherit-the-kingdom list in Galatians 5 which I talk about in my article, and so are many other things like envy, lust, jealousy, outbursts of anger, etc..
But “those who are Christ’s (going-to-heaven Christians) have crucified their flesh…,” according to Paul. All of these New Testament texts fit together if we accept what they really say.
I try to keep my article simple by simply stating the very clear texts. Someday, I’d like to add more of 1 John, which to me is a study all in itself. I’m reluctant to precisely summarize what John’s conclusions are. But I will say that if our consciences condemn us now we won’t have boldness if we were to die and stand before Him.
God, the Holy Spirit, who resides in us now is in synch with Jesus Whom we will answer to. If we don’t feel right with the Holy Spirit now we’ll be devastated then.
But if we have rest in our heart, peace that we are right with God and all people, we can trust this rest, this peace.
But if we’re walking after the flesh, we will feel condemnation (according to Paul), which today’s church says is just ‘conviction,’ which is part of the greatest deception. Pastors, today, rewrite the Bible by the texts they exclude and/or misread.
What does Romans 8 really say, for example?
Christianity is about abiding in Christ. Being born-again is just the start.
In today’s largely deceived church, I think it’s misleading to regularly use the word ‘saved.’ Because Biblically, only he or she who endures to the end will be saved.
In the meantime, we need to work out our salvation through fear and trembling. Paul said that, right? God will always give us the grace to fulfill our calling, but we must stay in Him to do so. If we’re not right with Him and our brother or sister, He’ll let us know. And it’s right to be afraid, to feel condemned if we don’t get and stay right, no matter what the smooth talking theologians state.
What matters is what the Bible says and what the Holy Spirit is saying to our hearts. And if we don’t know what the Holy Spirit is saying to us specifically we’re probably not truly abiding in Him, for God opposes the proud but gives grace to the humble. Draw near to Him and He’ll draw near to you.
Abiding in Christ is Christianity (John 15, etc.). To not abide is the way to eternal death, apart from Him.
Please read my article, Who-Goes-to-Heaven…. I think it will help you understand what the Bible really does teach.
The deception in the last days will be great!
We need to do our homework to see through the Matrix that is taught as being the real thing.
Ever see the movie, “The Matrix?” I’ll take the red pill, thank you. Let’s all take the red pill and live in real freedom!!!
Jeff Fenske
‘ONE’ can happen — Jesus’ heart-cry in John 17 is that we’d be ONE in Him. “Then the world will know….”
Richard
In reference to Romans 8 you are leaving out romans 7, 8 is a continuation of 7 and, yea if you just focus on Romans 8, you can make a doctrine out of it…What did Paul say in Romans 7, particularly towards the end, that led into Romans 8?…
Jeff Fenske
Richard,
“who shall deliver me from the body of this death?”
The Holy Spirit delivered him, according to Romans 8.
Romans 7 was life before the Spirit, and Romans 8 was a life of no condemnation because the Spirit now enabled him to do what he couldn’t in Romans 7.
Jeff Fenske
Joshua James
Jeff! Just a quick question and we can continue our conversation! And one comment: The comment is that I will continue to dialogue with you, mainly because you seem like an interesting person, and God is signaling me to continue our conversation….. Please don’t send me to links! And without intent of offending you, please try to tighten up our conversation. You’re writing it broad and somewhat evasive. I just feel that you are sounding a little like a recording. With all due respect! Let have a great discussion in the Lord……
So let me begin with one question. Did we choose God or did God choose us? Try to make it brief and then shoot a question at me. Les have some fun and learn at the same time.
You see, I am nothing but a small follower of Christ who stumbles over my own feet, more then I would like to share. I am weak and was a God hater from birth. Only by His grace and mercy did He call me!
Joshua………………I am still not getting notified by email……I just though I would come back tonight.
Jeff Fenske
Joshua,
I’m sorry that I seemed wordy. This is a real touchy topic for many, and many well-meaning Christians hardly understand at all about what is really going on, so I felt obligated to cover the subject sufficiently, as this is an open forum.
I don’t understand why you don’t want me to ever respond by linking to something I’ve written or posted.
And I have no idea why WordPress isn’t notifying you by email after additional comments are posted. That is totally out of my control. I hope this isn’t happening to many. I just posted some comments at a WordPress powered photo blog, and I was notified when further comments were posted. I don’t know what to say….
Your question: “Did we choose God or did God choose us?”
My “brief” answer would be: both.
A slightly longer version is this.
The Bible states that Jesus died for everyone, wanting all to come to the knowledge of the truth. He wants all to go to heaven. I think He calls everyone, but in His omniscience and foreknowledge, it seems like He may specifically call some more than others, especially in answer to people’s prayers.
But I don’t claim to understand how this really works. I do understand that we are all responsible for our responses, because He really is calling everyone, and He gives us the grace to respond.
There are unseen forces, demons, that almost all people have in abundance. These forces work hard to keep people from seeking and living in God. When we pray for people, especially in tongues (our personal prayer language that deals directly with demonic forces in a way in which we don’t have to understand the specifics of their yukky activities), people can almost always then be more free to hear God’s call and more able to respond.
Joshua, what are you thinking regarding this?
jeff
Joshua James
Dear Jeff:
Hi I am back again! You said. I don’t understand why you don’t want me to ever respond by linking to something I’ve written or posted……. Well, put them up if you like, but I won’t go to them. If someone is addressing a question to me. I go to scripture alone! The only reason that I ran into this subject was because I bought and liked the video he made on Music and Christianity.
I did get a reply from woldpress this time. But never in the past…..
The answer I was looking for was that only God chooses us! Yes He uses many methods ie prayer, evangels and preacher……
But there is not way a man can boast about his salvation, God chooses us. We don’t choose him. Ephesians 2:8,9 comes to mind. I was studying the book of Ephesians, and I don’t know how you can come up with anything other then God choosing us. Maybe read it again. To me it is so crystal clear.
By claiming that you had some part in it is works. Man is always trying to claim that they can do something to earn there way to heaven or appease the Father. That’s why Christ died….. If the law could save then Christ died for nothing.
Works come as a natural response to fellowship with the Father, because of what He has done. Are you familiar with the doctrine of regeneration? Works are a natural part of being supernaturally converted by the Blood of Christ……….
My friend, what are you thinking regarding this?
Richard
Amen to that…How could jeff say both when the bible does not say that…God says i sought you you did not seek Me, I chose you , you did not choose Me….that does not indicate a duality…
Jeff Fenske
God calls us, and we respond, because He enables us to by His grace, by the Holy Spirit.
But we must respond.
And once we are born-again: “Draw near to God and He will draw near to you.”
He always wants to draw near to people. But people keep themselves from Him.
Jeff Fenske
Jeff Fenske
Joshua,
Okay, so if I can save time and effort by linking to something that I’ve already written (or scriptures I’ve already posted so I don’t have to spend so much time answering, you are saying you won’t go to them.
Well, that’s up to you, but is that loving your neighbor as yourself, the second greatest commandment? I do this all on my own time for free…. Do you understand my point?
I’ve met Joe, and have seen him give his Rock n’ Roll presentation in person. I’ve also watched the entire 8-hour version. Very informative; though, it has some sexual content I wouldn’t feel right about showing.
In this post, Joe is mainly refuting OSAS. He doesn’t specifically lay out what real Christianity is, what specifically is the truth about who then does go to heaven according to the Bible. But this is what I do in the link that you won’t visit, which is mostly scripture, by the way.
Then you said: “The answer I was looking for was that God chooses us!”
Are you looking for the truth or for support in what you already think is true? I’m all about finding what is really true no matter what, and I answer from what I believe is true.
You say: “If the law could save then Christ died for nothing.” I specifically answer someone who accused me of this in comment #22 in Who-Goes-To-Heaven Scriptures — Narrow is the Way. You don’t have to read it, but that’s where my answer is. I don’t believe anything anywhere near to what you claim I believe.
Regarding Eph. 2:8,9, when Paul talks about ‘works,’ he’s usually talking about works of the OT law, and then he goes on to explain what we are required to do and not to do in the later chapters. This is his style, and today’s Bible teachers are misleading millions by following Luther’s interpretation of Paul’s writings that ignored what Paul clearly said in the body of his letters. They’re basing doctrines mainly upon Paul’s introductory statements, ignoring what he specifically says in the later chapters.
You suggested I read Ephesians again. Let’s look at Ephesians 5, letting Paul interpret Paul:
“Let no one deceive you,” Joe mentioned over and over. “The wrath of God comes on the children of disobedience.”
Ephesians is clear. And Paul in Galatians is even more specific as to who will enter the kingdom of heaven and who will not. This is all laid out in “Who-Goes-To-Heaven Scriptures….”
Yes, I am familiar with the doctrine of regeneration and what it means to be born-again. Being born-again is just the start. Jesus said in Matthew 28 that we are to be disciples, observing all the things that He commanded:
There are many warnings in the NT which warn us what will happen if we don’t abide in Him to the extent required, which the Bible specifically says.
What most pastors teach in America today is probably a heresy in God’s eyes. There isn’t one Scripture that says we can willfully disobey the Holy Spirit in the sins that lead to death and still go to heaven, but there are many that warn us that we’ll not go to heaven if we do.
“Those who are led by the Spirit are the sons of God,” Paul says in Romans 8 (letting Paul interpret Paul):
And he says this:
We’ve been fed a lie, what Joe calls The Greatest Deception. Matthew 24:
Is it possible that mainstream preachers in America are among the “false prophets” who Jesus predicted would lead many astray to the point that now iniquity is multiplied as the love of many has grown cold to the point that many ‘Christians’ actually hate people, which is reverse-Christianity — the opposite of what Jesus taught?
Jeff Fenske
Richard
lot of people say that they want the truth no matter what, but, when someone will not have a discussion and only says i believe what i believe…how can one be really searching the scriptures for the truth..The only reason Christ was crucified on the cross was because we could not pay for our sins…you also have to understand the concept of time with reference to God…If christ paid for our sins then God turned around and required also our payment of those same sins, what was the point in Christ’s sacrifice?…I am sorry that you have to have that warm fuzzy feeling of self righteousness that comes with the realization of “I just did a righteous act”…What would you say to God if you were standing before Him and He were to ask you why He should let you into His Heaven?…What have you done to deserve it and what have you done not to deserve it?…
bob
“Depart from me you workers of Iniquity”.
Folks the word iniquity is the Greek word ANOMIA, A meaning without, Nomia meaning TORAH (also know by western christians as “the law”)
Read Matthew Chapter 5-7. The law will NOT pass away, and the Messiah warns us to DO AND TEACH the Least of the Law.
What group on Earth calls “Jesus” (Which is not even his name, nor a translation of the Messiah’s name) Lord, but does not obey his father, and in fact teaches the exact opposite of what the Messiah teaches?
Just as Shaul said in Romans 3:31 Do we make void the law through Faith? GOD FORBID! WE ESTABLISH THE LAW!
Leave you religious dog and pony shows behind and start obeying the Creator of the Universe and the Messiah!
Richard
Like i said if we are required to obey the Law then why did Christ come and die on the Cross?…
Joshua James
Wow! All in all this is the strangest posting I have ever done…….. I think I am going to end it with these thoughts…….
If you people want to work for your salvation, then you may as well just live the ten commandment! Pretend that Jesus never came and just live by the law. Which is impossible! Break one, you broke em all!
Jeff, I don’t even know how to respond to you. You write these long and sad (bit and pieces) of Scripture, trying to make some point……I read Gods Word, so I don’t need to put a Scripture here and a Scripture there to prove a point. I can also do the same, and justify murder! Or stealing! I have seen it done before…. I guess I just presume that people posting about Christ and know Scripture?
If you must, keep working for your salvation! “So sad” and for me, I will find my motivation to work, because of what my God has done for me! Have you ever hear of the doctrine of regeneration?
You mentioned speaking in an angelic language! How people ever were able to extract that from the Scripture, I will never know! I amazing it’s the same place where people think they have to work for there salvation……
You aimlessly try to appease a Holy God with some type of works! And while you do that! You totally ignore the Work of the Cross!
Men, it seems are always trying to save themselves! “Somehow, if I just do (this) God will save me!” Or think better of me! Foolishness!… My motivation for doing good works is because of a wonderful Savor who saved me from the wrath of the Father, by His precious blood! Self preservation has no place in Scripture.
Ephesians 1:18 I pray also that the eyes of your heart may be enlightened in order that you may know the hope to which he has called you, the riches of his glorious inheritance in the saints,
PS Bob……. I think you are looking for another posting….. “The names of God” “The names of Jesus”………… Here let me get you started Adam, the Last Bright & Morning Star, Bridegroom, Bread, Cornerstone, Chosen of God, Advocate, All & in All Almighty, Altogether Lovely One Amen Alpha & Omega Author, Anchor Ancient of Days Angel [of the Lord] Anointed, Messiah. Apostle, Arm of the Lord Balm of Gilead,…….lets not forget the Word…….I could go on and on! But I don’t want to clog up this posting!
Love to all my friends and enemies, In Christ The King of Kings and Lord of Lords….Your friend Joshua
Richard
He is obviously Arminian…been there done that…
Jeff Fenske
My responses to Bob and Joshua
First, Bob,
I would say this about the law in the new covenant.
Paul taught we’re no longer under the law *if* we’re led by the Holy Spirit. Because when we’re led by the Holy Spirit we’ll fulfill the law.
Like Jesus said in Mt. 5: we won’t be committing adultery if we’re not even lusting; we won’t kill anyone if we’re not even hating, etc..
Joshua,
You previously asked me if I’ve heard of the doctrine of regeneration, and I already answered you. What’s up? Perhaps you didn’t even read what I wrote because I quote scripture??
Why would a truly regenerated person not want to discuss the scriptures themselves when discussing scripture?
And Joshua, I just remembered, in comment #21, you seemed to say that what you want is scripture. So I give you scripture and then you say this.
I’m confused.
jeff
Richard
You also should understand that when Jesus was performing His earthly Ministry, people were still bound to the Law because He had not yet been sacrificed so Salvation through Christ was not an issue in the Gospels…Salvation through Christ started in Acts after the death and resurection and acension…During his ministry He was also proving that man was unable to save himself…
Jeff Fenske
I never said that man was able to save himself. We merely keep the salvation that Jesus bought for us by abiding in Him, being right with Him and our neighbors to the degree He requires. Otherwise our names will be removed from the Book of Life (Rev. 3:1-6, specifically — Sardis). We forfeit our salvation by not staying in His parameters.
It’s pretty clear that Jesus was teaching new covenant theology; though, only He had the Holy Spirit the way we do now. http://onecanhappen.com/2007/12/12/a-call-to-intimacy-the-holy-spirit-in-john%E2%80%99s-gospel-epistles-by-jeff-fenske/
Like in the Sermon on the Mount, Jesus said: “It has been said, but I say….” That’s new covenant. And that’s why the disciples couldn’t understand Him. But Jesus said they would once the Holy Spirit would come. The Holy Spirit “will remind you of all that I said to you.” John 14:
So Jesus taught new covenant truth, knowing they would understand what He said after Pentecost.
But here’s an example of where He said they “ought to have done,” something that was definitely old covenant — the law of tithing — which is now commonly taught as new covenant.
He wasn’t exhorting them according to the new covenant here. The Levitical priesthood was still in place, and needed sustenance. And he was actually stating this in the past tense.
Jeff Fenske
Joshua James
Dear Jeff, don’t be confused! Really! Maybe I can explain. First off I don’t look at each comment that I have written in the past. But in the same breath, I don’t mind any question you have concerning the past comment. I don’t mind discussing the Scriptures, I didn’t mean that. The scriptures are the most important issue! My point again was that you can throw Scripture out of context all day long………..No more then two scriptures a comment, and don’t write them out…….Is that ok?
It seem like eve time I respond to your comment, you send me on the wild goose egg chases. Let’s stick to the point! I tried this in the beginning. Keep your comments short and to the point. And I will do the same! I will leave this with you first. Ask me a short question on this issue. I will answer you and then I will ask you a question. That way it doesn’t turn into a foot long reply! Joshua
bigritchie
My how American christians love to quote Shaul when he says something that sounds the least bit against the Law, but they never quote the dozens of times Shaul upholds the Torah.
They love to quote Shaul when he talks about being “under the law” which is a Torah concept to begin with, or quote Shaul when he says “lead by the spirit”, but never understanding that the very same Shaul said “I serve the Torah of God with my inward man, and the law of sin with the flesh”. They never quote Shaul when he says “The law is holy, the commandments just”, or “The doers of the law will be justified”, or Romans 3:31 “Do we make void the Torah through faith? GOD FORBID, WE ESTABLISH THE TORAH”
Most christians prove themselves to be insincere with the standard answer “But Paul says” when they misdirect the conversation from what the Messiah said. They tend to only quote Paul when it comes to their lawless argument, that a person must either Choose “Grace or obeying God” The true choice is “Law vs Lawlessness”
In reality Yahshua of Nazareth is the Messiah, and he gets the “bottom line” on any teaching.
#1 Paul was not crucified for you
#2 Paul is not the Son of YHWH
#3 Paul does not have all authority given to him
#4 Paul is not the Messiah
#5 Paul does not sit at the right hand of YHWH
#6 Paul does not have the authority to correct the Creator or the Messiah!
Yet people continue to do the “But Paul says”. I hate to tell you this but many of the modern English “versions” of the Bible do not tell the entire story when Paul says things. A good example is “Let all meats be received with thanksgiving”.
The word meat is a specific Greek word which means CLEAN ACCORDING TO TORAH LAW.
Paul in fact upholds the Torah and teaches it. Keeping the law does not grant you forgiveness of sins, BUT NOT KEEPING TORAH WILL GET YOU TOSSED INTO HELL AS THE MESSIAH TEACHES.
1 John tells us that those who do not keep the commandments are liars and the truth is not in them.
I would suggest readers ask themselves why modern day American Christianity teaches
#1 A false name of Messiah
#2 A false birthdate of December 25th when all pagan sun gods were born, Messiah was born during the Feast of Sukkot/Tabernacles not December 25th
#3 And a fake ressurection date. “Easter” is the babylonian sex and fertility goddess!
Many of us have been presented with another “Jesus” not the historical “Jesus” of the Bible, but the pagan sun god version of “Jesus” as given through modern churches.
The truth should never be viewed from a persons religious point of view. Your religious point of views should always be viewed through the Truth.
Richard
The doers of the Law shall be saved….but i can garantee yo uthat not one does the Law perfectly…to slip at one point is to slip at the whole law…so where does that leave everbody?…condemned…
Richard
you are so way off base with your understanding of koine greek…I’ve read what Paul says in Greek and i still hold to what he said…Someone reads a book written by a man and thinks he now knows the whole Truth…you types will get recompence…
Richard
by the way…we are not commanded to observe Christ’s birth or His resurection…we are commanded however to observe the communion…You strain at a gnat but then swallow a whole camel…
Joshua James
This whole issue has turned into a foolish conversation! The whole point is very simple. Christ Jesus paid the price for all of our sins. If one is a true believer, they will be saved by God Himself!……………No, I am sorry you can’t even boast about your salvation! Those who think they can be saved by any type of works are spiting in Christ face! And saying in fact, that you died for nothing! A true follower of Christ will do good works out of love for the Father! Not because he is under law! A true believer can not go on sinning without the discipline of the Father……..So stop trying to appease God by your works. You can do NOTHING in your self to please the Father, except throwing yourself on Christ!….. So stop trying to work for your salvation! Take yourself off the scale you have created in your mind….. And if you do want to use the scale, put yourself on one side and Christ on the other. You will fall off the scale!
In the Love of Christ! joshua james…..nothing but the least in the Kingdom of God… All hail and lift up Christ Jesus!!!!!!!!!
bigritchie
Joshua I would humbly suggest you read Matthew Chapter 5 through 7.
You do not keep the Torah because to get forgiveness of sins.
1 John 3:4 tells us that SIN is transgression of the Law of Moses.
Therefor when you repent of breaking the Law, you start keeping it.
You keep the laws because you love the lawgiver and love your neighbor as yourself. His laws are not a burden, the burden is the man made religion.
Yahshua NEVER broke the Torah, he kept the Sabbath. For example the Pharisees had created their own religious laws and added over ONE THOUSAND laws to the Sabbath day!
There is no pray a prayer and punch your ticket to heaven.
I hope you will read the 4 gospels and see what the Messiah teaches.
Shalom
Jeff Fenske
Joshua,
It’s as if you haven’t even watched Joe’s message or read my Who-Goes-To-Heaven… article. Are you that blind, or are you just writing this without having read especially my article?
It’s plain as day in the Word, which gives the parameters to stay in right relationship with Him.
Jeff Fenske
Joshua James
Jeff, it as though you haven’t kept an eye on the Scriptures! Could it be that you have not the Holy Spirit? You keep pointing me to all of these messages by Joe ect……I extract my truth from God’s Word. Who are you being taught from? Joe?
I just started watching the video he made again (which made me think of you again) and I plan on sharing it with others! But I am amazed that he can do such a good job of exposing the false doctrines of Satan in the Rock world, but has a works salvation like yourself! Which is no salvation at all!
I pray for you! That God would open your eyes to His truth! Keep working on your Salvation and you will end up in Hell and those who follow your teachings! I warn you to examine the Scriptures and repent of your works salvation, that is no salvation at all.
When I read this Scripture, it says your lost and I am confused on how to show you the lies your telling yourself!……. 1 Corinthians 2:14-16 The man without the Spirit does not accept the things that come from the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him, and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually discerned. The spiritual man makes judgments about all things, but he himself is not subject to any man’s judgment: “For who has known the mind of the Lord that he may instruct him?” But we have the mind of Christ
John Vian
I can tell you if Joe Schimmel is accurate or not in his message, “The Great Deception.” Just open your Bible and read it. Let’s see here. Ezekiel chapter 3:20-21, Ezekiel chapter 18:24-26 and Ezekiel 33:12. Yup, looks like Pastor Schimmel is hitting the nail on the head. I wish there were more people that knew how to search out if one is accurate according to the Bible. Ezekiel can tell you that Joe hasn’t gone astray yet.
Joshua James
That’s great John. Like many, pick a couple of verse’s to make a point! I find it so sad that you folks are trying to earn there salvation by doing good works!……Someone pls tell me how they can know they are saved? How many good works must I do!…..You spit on the Cross of Christ any time you try to do anything in your own works. Paul made it easy for a man to understand the works are like a rag that a woman uses when she is on her period! They can’t save and never have been about to save and they can’t keep your salvation!
You people are so in love with a man! I see it all the time! But it still hurts to see so many trusting in themselves (works) to save them….
Next time someone replies to this, I want them to explain to me what works of man are going to save them.
Have a good day and I pray for anyone who reads this and may God open the eyes of your heart to the truth!
Love Joshua
Jeff Fenske
Joshua,
I wrote this, above:
I never said that man was able to save himself. We merely keep the salvation that Jesus bought for us by abiding in Him, being right with Him and our neighbors to the degree He requires. Otherwise our names will be removed from the Book of Life (Rev. 3:1-6, specifically — Sardis). We forfeit our salvation by not staying in His parameters.
If you really want to know what the Bible says about who goes to heaven and who really are the children of God, please read my article: Who-Goes-To-Heaven Scriptures — Narrow is the Way
Jeff Fenske
Joshua James
Jeff, it’s been a long time! No, I’ll just stick to my Bible! But thank you anyways!
When you work or try to keep your salvation by works, it’s all the same thing! You’re doing it in your own strength! I prefer to do things in the strength of Christ! I will never be able to boast about my salvation!…..Like the Apostil Paul wrote. “I will boast in my weaknesses”.
Great to hear from you again!
I will never understand John Vian comment below! Magical prayer? I mean I get what he is saying! But you can’t base a doctrine on what you see so-called American Christianity is doing!….Obviously if someone is sinning like the devil, then they weren’t saved in the first place!
PS you should know by now that I don’t go chasing articles instead of the scriptures. The only reason that I found this was because I ordered the Rock documentary!
Love ya, In Christ…. Josh
Jeff Fenske
Joshua,
Paul writes in Philippians 2:
12 So then, my beloved, even as you have always obeyed, not only in my presence, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling. 13 For it is God who works in you both to will and to work, for his good pleasure.
God gives us the strength to work out our salvation through fear and trembling. He enables us to actually do the greatest two commandments. If we don’t, we’ll be thrown into the fire and burned (John 15 and many other texts that I list in my article that you don’t have to read, but it’s basically pure scripture).
You don’t have to learn from others about what your Bible really says. You have free will. But you’ve been warned.
Regarding John’s comment about sinning like the Devil, the sinning doesn’t have to be that extreme. A truly born-again ‘Christian’ just has to sin as much as most are willfully doing in order to lose their salvation.
Paul is warning already born-again believers about losing their salvation. That’s who he’s speaking to. And he does this in many places, as my article that you won’t read clearly shows — as does Joe Schimmel in the above video.
‘Christians’ can ignore what the Holy Spirit is leading them to do, and they do so at their own peril, contrary to what most preachers preach today. This is why we’re losing our country.
Most preachers are misleading the ‘church’ in America, and then the ‘church’ spreads this doctrine of demons (once saved, always saved) around the world (“mission work”), deceiving the world too — while at the same time, the evangelical ‘Christians’ openly support immoral wars that turn off the world from seeking Christ even more.
It’s disgusting what ‘Christianity’ has become in America. We’ve poisoned our own country — and the world too!
— all because people won’t carefully read their own Bibles like the Bereans, to make sure what they’ve been taught is right or not. How many pastors and ‘priests’ actually encourage us to make sure that what they’re teaching us is true? Hardly any.
In fact, what I’ve found is that most pastors pray that people believe and accept what they say, which can be James-3 cursing (which I discuss in this blog), putting demons on their own people to adhere to their teaching without question. This is mind-control. And most evangelicals (and Catholics) are victims, just as most pastors and ‘priests’ are victims, themselves. They’re just passing it on.
It’s time to wake up! Look what we’ve become. Look what we’ve done! The world is watching. If they saw the real thing, many would follow.
“I like your Christ, I do not like your Christians. Your Christians are so unlike your Christ”
– Mahatma Gandhi.
“Break out of the trance,” I believe I just heard.
jeff
Joshua James
I totally understand what you are trying to say! Love the bold letters; not really! He is the biggest part of the equation that you are totally missing! You say that you must work to keep your salvation! I say this is heresy! Why? Because it is impossible for God to save someone and then for them to be lost! (anything apart from this is; saving yourself) Again you are using what you see (there are millions of people that think they are save and call themselves Christian, that aren’t! You don’t build a doctrine around that!) Rather then using what scripture says! By working for your continued salvation, you are boasting that you can do something in the flesh to accomplish what Christ has done! Works are a natural occurrence when one in born again! The Apostle Paul says it himself “it’s not a license to sin”! You know there are plenty of Scriptures that I could use to prove the point. But I am sure you know them all! Also, one day you will have to show me the works that you are doing to keep your salvations? Maybe write them down for me? I would like to see which ones you are doing!….I guess you get my point? It’s impossible!
Jeff Fenske
Joshua,
You say you do, but I don’t think you yet understand my perspective, probably mostly because you stubbornly refuse read the scriptures I lay out in Who-Goes-To-Heaven Scriptures — Narrow is the Way | Who are the Children of God?, saying you “don’t go chasing articles instead of the scriptures.”
Well, I call that being unteachable, not being willing to look at what is already posted that could easily solve this misunderstanding on what the Bible really says about who goes to heaven. Also, my article is mainly scriptures.
Where’s the love? I shouldn’t have to rewrite what I’ve already written, what is just a mouse-click away.
And Peter warns us: BEWARE, in the LAST DAYS People Will Be WILLINGLY IGNORANT. You don’t want to be one of them, do you, unwilling to look at truth?
Joshua, I don’t know if you’re actually interested or just making fun, asking me to list my works, but for those who are reading this, who really want to know the truth about where I’m coming from, having the gall to claim that what Paul said in Philippians 2 actually applies to us, I’ll respond:
“Work out your salvation” and “God works in you,” as well as many other scriptures mean to me this, specifically. I don’t do these blogs in order to earn my way to heaven. I already have that. But I have to stay in Christ in order to not forfeit my inheritance. And that’s true for all of us who are born-again, who have been forgiven. We must stay right with God and people in order to live with a holy God in paradise. We must stay forgiven.
I do these blogs because I have a burden in my heart to investigate and share this information for the betterment of mankind, so many can see the light and ONE (Jesus’ desire for us in John 17) can more swiftly happen.
What I’m doing right now is almost like breathing for me. It’s natural. It’s even often enjoyable; though, at times it’s frustrating, like here, which saddens my heart.
I don’t get paid a dime; though, I spend thousands of hours blogging. What’s up with that? It’s not about going to heaven for me. It’s about doing what is right, what I need to be doing, what I’m led to do.
But there are things I do and don’t do in order to keep my salvation according to the many New Testament texts I quote in Who-Goes-To-Heaven Scriptures — Narrow is the Way | Who are the Children of God?
I want to make sure I’m in Paul’s “those who are Christ’s” list in Galatians 5, specifically. We all should make sure. That is largely about keeping myself pure, keeping myself in those guardrail guidelines, parameters — keeping myself on the straight and narrow, the road to eternal life.
We must abide in Him, Paul says; Jesus says. This is what the Bible says. This isn’t some new theology. What’s new is the once-saved, always saved heresy/deception, which is something Jesus and the apostles didn’t believe. And it doesn’t matter how mainstream OSAS has become. We need to get back to what the Bible really says, what the apostles really believed.
In Take Heed that No Man Deceive You: “FALSE TEACHERS are actually SPEAKING SPELLS…with the words of their FALSE DOCTRINES”, Benjamin Baruch points out that the deception we are now in is to be expected, as it was prophecied:
The LORD warned us specifically to “take heed that no man deceive you.” The LORD does not give idle warnings, for the warnings and admonitions of the LORD are themselves prophecy of what would come. The LORD is actually saying: “In the last days, the majority will be deceived, take heed that it doesn’t happen to you!”
Not only is deception of the church possible, it was prophesied to happen! “For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears; And they shall turn away their ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables.”
OSAS is a fable. It appeals to the lust of the flesh. We can do anything; we can be independent of God and still go to heaven. This is the great deception.
And that’s why Gandhi and so many others are repulsed by American ‘Christianity.’ It’s mostly a false Christianity in which people don’t walk like Christ, thinking they’re going to heaven.
But there is a better way, the way that the Bible really teaches, for those who have ears to hear — for those who aren’t willingly ignorant.
“God opposes the proud, but gives grace to the humble.”
May we walk submitted to and abiding in Christ. “Then the world will know.”
John Vian
I think I’m on the same page as Jeff Fenske. Jesus also agrees by stating that we cannot serve two masters. Van Halen lied to us when they said that we can have the best of both worlds. In all reality, we can’t server God and mammon. I choose to serve the Lord, and that’s not cheep lip service. I apply all scripture to my life and I abide by what Jesus wants. He wants fruit of the spirit, the labor of our hands, our praise and worship, a devotional time spent in prayer and reading God’s Holy Word. It’s just as a personal relationship as the one I have with my wife. I want a reputation as one who walked with God…… Yeah that’s right.
John Vian
Dear Joshua
Go ahead and sin like the devil and let’s see if you make it to heaven. You will not have one word to say on judgment day because your teeth will be rattling when Jesus tells you He never knew you. Unless you find that path which leads to eternal life, you will never get to heaven based on some magical prayer.
Joshua James
Greeting John: I kind of answered your question when I just replied to Jeff!….Let me know if there is anything else I can help you with.
Much love, In Christ, Joshua
Anonymous
I love Joe. He is the pastor of our church and I give thanks to Jesus Christ for his boldness in speaking the truth off the page which so many pastors don’t. I left my last church because of it’s lack of teaching the whole council of God. Joe never teaches we have to work for our salvation. He teaches what the word says. We are saved by grace, not by works, it is a gift of God, lest any man should boast. and faith without works is dead. We serve and live for Jesus because of our great love for Him. Joe is on fire for the Lord and doesn’t worry about pleasing man, but pleasing God. He always teaches us to test everything with the Word of God even his own teaching. When he teaches, he reads off the page, we look at the hebrew and greek, we reference passages. He is helping many to stear away from popular teachings that are leading many to hell, and searching the scriptures like Bereans.
We can not go by what is popular, we must look at what the Word of God says. It is too bad American Christians have become so complacent, comfortable and gullible that the world can not tell us apart. We need a little fire under our fanny and we need to be serious for Jesus so others will want what we have.
God Bless Joe’s ministry it has helped me grow in the Lord so much.
Jenny
Espen Johansen
so what kind of christians is Jesus talking about here ? is the ones that add their rightousness to his rightousness or is it the ones who belive that his righousness is given and forever ?
Many will say to me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name and in your name drive out demons and in your name perform many miracles?’ 23 Then I will tell them plainly, ‘I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers
Jeff Fenske
Espen,
The ones who work out their salvation through fear and trembling — living Holy and pure by God’s grace — the Holy Spirit in us to overcome sin. This text (from which you quoted) and many others are in: Who-Goes-To-Heaven Scriptures — Narrow is the Way | Who are the Children of God?
Matt. 7:13-27
“Jesus didn’t set us free to sin; He set us free from sin.” – Steve Hill
Fred
Arminians and there belief in an Indian giving God how sad. No wonder Dr.Walter Martin referred to them as an heretical cult of grace killers and cheap grace
Jeff Fenske
Fred,
Did you actually watch Joe’s video? I don’t see how anyone could and respond like you did here.
Also, it sounds like you don’t understand the true Biblical view of grace, which is common, because of the false teaching that prevails today. I added some links to the article, if you’re interested.
We need to be like the Bereans, who researched the Scriptures daily to make sure what Paul taught them was true. And what Paul taught is the opposite of what the security-in-sin teachers teach today.
The deception in the last days will be great.
Jeff
Ralph
As an ex endurance snowmobile racer and runner I can tell you it’s much easier to begin a race well than it is to finish well. Gods word is very clear we need to finish well. If we deny Him He will deny us. Ralph
Jeff Fenske
Paul did use the race terminology. He ran his race to win. For example, he made sure he was RECONCILED and right with everyone that he could be, having a clear conscience. Jesus said in Mt. 5, that if we remember someone has ought with us, that we should leave our gift at the altar, and first reconcile with that brother/sister, and then give our gift.
Paul in Acts 24:16 —
“Herein I also practice ALWAYS having a conscience void of offense toward God and men.”
Anonymous
If you want to ask the question was a person really converted? ok. Question? At what poit does a person lose tgeir salvation? When is there just too much sin. You are always a sinner by the way. At what point does a Christian lose their salvation before losing rewards? Works being burnt up but they themselves saved? Before they skip that process and go to hell? At what point to you commit so much sin that you skip the sin unto death where the Lord takes you home early for such a life unprofitable and flesh, but still saved contextually, a sin only a christian can commit by the way. What you have is mens philosophies and not Biblical interpretation. So many Scriptures come to mind on eternal security!!! all based on God’s Son and not us. Have you guys ever counted the men in both the OT and NT whis lives were at times and sometimes at large fleshlt and Scripture call them God’s. In the NT the Apostles wrote about some people in some pretty serious sin, and still called them brothers. If you want to talk about dealing with sin sure, trully putting your faith in Christ, sure. But the teaching against the security of the believer is very unbiblical,,,,, if you read Scripture correcly.
Jeff Fenske
Anonymous,
I don’t mind people being completely anonymous, which is why I allow this in my settings. But sometimes, people use anonymity to say things in a way they wouldn’t had they used their real names. I’m not sure what you’re doing here, but you asked a lot of questions, of which I responded to some, and was planning on addressing the rest, but perhaps your questions were just rhetorical, because you end with your believe once-saved-always-saved, which has been disproven multiple times on this site, and you didn’t respond to my response, which I carefully wrote, thinking you actually wanted a response. But maybe you did not.
If you’re actually serious about what the Bible says, I’d be glad to continue my response; otherwise, I won’t waste my time.
Jeff
Anonymous
My apologies for the misspelled words, smarphone…
Jeff Fenske
I’ll answer soon. Thanks for asking. I don’t know what subject could be more important. I want to give this my full attention.
Jeff Fenske
Sorry for taking so long to respond. I decided to give this a full response that will take some time, because you ask some key questions that many should be asking. If we get who-goes-to-heaven wrong, and don’t live in Christ fully enough, eternity in hell is the highest price to pay. And the Bible says we’d have been better off never knowing God then, because our judgment will be more severe.
I’ll correct your spelling errors for this discussion, which I imagine you’d appreciate, even though you’re anonymous.
You say:
If you want to ask the question was a person really converted? ok.
Being truly born-again is essential. We must at one point sincerely confess our sins and accept Jesus’ forgiveness, His gift of salvation. But that is supposed to be just the start of our life in the Son. Many pastors in the US now teach this is all that is necessary to go to heaven, saying “Jesus did it all.” Others teach we have to keep believing that we are forgiven because of what Jesus did and our response, but we don’t have to do anything else to stay “legally” right with God. Calvinist pastors say if a person is really saved they will persevere. God will make him persevere. “He cannot not persevere.” But few actually even persevere enough to live in the Son themselves, and when pressed they will say even if we disobey and die in that state we will go to heaven because God’s covenant is irreversible.
You say:
At what point does a person lose their salvation? When is there just too much sin?
I wrote this article, which show key scriptures that tell us who goes to heaven:
Who-Goes-To-Heaven Scriptures — Narrow is the Way | Who are the Children of God? — “There is therefore now *NO CONDEMNATION* to those who are IN CHRIST Jesus, who don’t WALK according to the flesh, but ACCORDING TO THE SPIRIT”
The quote is what Romans 8:1 actually says in the Bibles that haven’t had thousands of words removed, explained here:
“What is HORRIBLY WRONG with Modern Bible Translations like the NIV? Most modern versions slavishly depend on the Egyptian and Vatican corruptions of the New Testament!
Most modern “Bibles” are based upon these corrupted Greek texts that exclude “who don’t walk according to the flesh, but according to the spirit,” leaving out Paul’s concise statement on what abiding in Christ requires so there is ‘no condemnation. But even in these altered Bibles, verse 4 repeats word for word “who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.” And verses 5-17 continue these obedience requirements to live in Christ Jesus so that we have no condemnation now and when we see Jesus face to Face. I show this here:
“Look what the NIV did to Romans 8:1 — They changed the entire meaning of the verse and leave no requirement or prerequisite to being free from condemnation!
So “At what point does a person lose their salvation? When is there just too much sin?”
I really do suggest you read my Who-Goes-To-Heaven Scriptures… article in its entirety to get a really good perspective on what is required. Many articles and sermons refute OSAS (once-saved-always-saved), but few show what is required to go to heaven. The OSAS and “only believe” scriptures saturate social media and dominate sermons on salvation — and even seminary textbooks, which I experienced myself in our systematic theology class on salvation.
One of the dozens of texts that tell us who goes to heaven is in Galatians 5 & 6. Which list are you in?
Most of today’s “Christians” are clearly in Paul’s first list, unlike Paul, who worked out his own salvation with fear and trembling, running his race to win. And “trembling” is much more than “reverence,” what the grace changers have reduced the fear of the Lord to.
You say:
You are always a sinner by the way.
Where in the New Testament does it say that we cannot stop sinning? Paul says the opposite. God will always give us the grace to overcome sin — any sin:
“No temptation has taken you except what is common to man. God is faithful, who will not allow you to be tempted above what you are able, but will with the temptation also make the way of escape, that you may be able to endure it.” (1 Cor. 10:13)
Grace is mistaught by the grace changers, by the way.
The meaning of “Grace” (χαρις) in the Bible: It’s not what you think? — ‘Grace’ is God giving us the Holy Spirit Who gives us the POWER TO OVERCOME SIN!
Paul overcame sin to the degree he could say was always right with God and people:
“Herein I also practice always having a conscience void of offense toward God and men.” (Acts 24:16)
Paul learned how to live a “no condemnation” life. Jesus taught in Matthew 5 that if we remember we have ought with another, reconcile before offering your gift. How many pastors even teach the necessity of reconciliation? And how many actually do it? Do you know even one? I can’t say that I can. Most pastors are not Biblically qualified to lead — almost every single one:
“Paul’s Elders’ qualifications revisited: What does ‘BLAMELESS’ mean? — Most pastors are biblically disqualified
Reconciliation was also the key element in revivals, because when we draw near to God He will draw near to us — as sure as the law of gravity!
(video) Asbury Revival, 1970: RECONCILIATION the KEY! — “‘Dr. Kinlaw, I am a liar. Now what do I do?’ … Three days later, she came to me radiant, and she said, ‘I just hit my 34th person and I’M FREE!’”
The Welsh Revival of 1904-05 by J. Edwin Orr: A Countrywide Asbury-like REVIVAL! The 4 Points: #1 Confess any known sin, and put any wrong done to man right again. #2 Put away any doubtful habit. #3 Obey the Spirit promptly. #4 Confess your faith publicly.
When we see Jesus face to Face our consciences must be clear to have faith to enter. It’s one thing to say we believe now that we’ll go to heaven, and quite another when we’re standing before HOLY JESUS being judged by Him who knows everything! I elaborate on this here:
No Condemnation now so No Condemnation when we meet Jesus face to Face — Hearts pure, smiling so big!!! FREEeeeeeeee———–DOM!!!!!!!
Imagine what it will be like to find out too late, having believed the OSAS lies without fully enough abiding in Christ so we let ourselves be prodigal, losing our inheritance. But God will run to us when we come back to Him, living safely in the Son!
[ video – The MOST BEAUTIFUL SONG! ] Benny Hester: “When God Ran”
Living safely in the Son, where we’re right with God and everyone (as God leads):
Please keep in mind that OSAS and “only believe” were prophesied to be the norm by Paul:
“For The TIME WILL COME when THEY WILL NOT LISTEN to the sound doctrine, but, having itching ears, will heap up for themselves TEACHERS AFTER THEIR OWN LUSTS; and will TURN AWAY THEIR EARS FROM THE TRUTH, and turn aside to *FABLES*” (2 Tim. 4:3-4)
OSAS and “only believe” are “doctrines of demons,” and “fables” — what people want to hear.
I’ll continue this later. This was part one of my response.