(video) Dan Corner Interview: The Believer’s Conditional Security

there really good colors in the video, however, i think it’s a little to long.

Actually i would like to add a little comment.
Being under the law of Moses is only applicable to a small amount of scripture and so if we are willing to say the following “Jesus is the same yesterday, today and tomorrow” Then His expectations for us ( besides the law ) are no different than His expectations in the old testament.
Adam and Eve ( mankind ) werent under law but they were still expelled from the garden for disobedience ( all disobedience is sin, therefore the one who knows to do what is right and does not do it sins! )
Therefore i feel old testament examples are VERY useful to us as all scripture is inspired of GOD and beneficial for teaching, Reproving etc.

Hello. I have stumbled upon your site recently, and am intrigued by it. I am looking for truth from God on some matters, and I have some questions about what Dan Corner and like-minded folks believe. I, along with him, am appalled at the licentiousness of Christians in these times. They would have the grace that God has given them be used as a license to sin, and I wonder about the condition of their salvation. Now, to my questions. I will list them numerically to make things easier.
1. Does Dan Corner teach sinless perfection (that a Christian can reach a state in his walk wherein he sins no longer)? If so, does this perfection come at the point of salvation, or some time thereafter?
2. In what manner does a Christian lose his salvation? Is it through excessive sin, loss of faith, or through willful rejection of Christ outright?
3. If salvation can be lost through sin, what kinds or what amount of sin cause it’s loss?
4. What do you believe was accomplished by Christ on the cross, and what do you believe His role to be now, as He abides in Heaven.
Thank you for your time. By the way, I didn’t ask question #3 because I intend to see “how far I can push the envelope”, I only desire to know the truth.
God bless,
Carl

Carl,
Just out of interest do you live in the UK? because i have a copy of brother Dan’s book i could mail to you.
Regards Ade

Hi Carl,
I am just typing this reply to let you know i wil answer in full however i have lesons to teach so will be quite busy tonight.
No not all sin is willful, Sometimes we crack under pressure and dont obey the Spirit – This is the wrestling with the flesh Paul spoke of.
But what about when we know something is wrong and just go ahead and do it, Slipping up or not realizing what we have said/done is completely different to be prompted by the Spirit through our conscience and going ahead and doing it anyway!. Will discuss in depth tomorrow when i get a chance to type more.
Yes sins are categorized in the bible , for instance consider that worry is a sin – The Lord says do not worry on many occasions, Have you ever worried about something Carl – I know i have and do. But nowhere is this sin mentioned as leading to death, neither is fear such a sin although if it caused you to deny Christ it could lead to death if you see what i mean.
Now consider Murder / Hate which is equated to murder by our Lord, The book of Revelation tells us no Murderer, Sorcerer or liar etc will enter the kingdom. It would be great to look at this more in depth.
Will do my best to type it up for you tomorrow.
Your brother in Christ
Adrian ( Ade )

Thank you all for being patient and answering my questions.
I’m still confused about some things. As I understand it, certain sins committed by believers are unto death (and I take it here you mean spiritual death), while others are not unto death (1 JN 5:16-17). However, Paul states that the “wages of sin is death…” (ROM 6:23). To sin means to die, unequivocally, indubitably. I don’t think there is any distinction between sins here.
Also, Adrian stated above that fear and worry are not counted as a sin leading to death. But idolatry is mentioned as a sin that is committed by those who will not inherit the kingdom of God (GAL 5:21). Since idolatry is not just the worship of graven images, but also giving regard to anything other than God with respect to our faith, then worry is indeed idolatry. Is not worry an undue reliance on our own reason? If I’m worrying it is because I have abandoned faith in God and am relying on my own wisdom (and the wisdom of my flesh is faulty and erroneous). As for fear (I think we all agree that we are not talking about fear the emotion, such as would be experienced when meeting a bear in the woods, but rather a spirit of fear or fear as a state of being) isn’t that unbelief? Look what the John has to say about fear and unbelief: “But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.” (REV 21:8). I don’t think it would be wrong to say that ALL sin stems from unbelief. I think it’s clear that God takes all sin very seriously, there are no minor sins, all deserve damnation. There is no permissibility with God when it comes to sin. Sins such as worry and unbelief may seem small to us, but this is only because we measure them by the standards of men. The standard of God is perfection, and without perfection no one enters the kingdom of God. Every sin is a major offense to him. Any sin is enough to keep you out of heaven.
Once again God says of New Jerusalem: “Nothing impure will ever enter it, nor will anyone who does what is shameful or deceitful” (REV 21:27). NOTHING impure will enter into the New Jerusalem, nor will anyone who does what is shameful. Isn’t all sin shameful? Isn’t all sin impure? So again I ask: what distinction is there between sins before the Law?
Thank you all for your patience in answering my questions,
Carl
By the way Adrian, I live in the US.

Hi Carl,
you stated these points
” Is not worry an undue reliance on our own reason? If I’m worrying it is because I have abandoned faith in God and am relying on my own wisdom (and the wisdom of my flesh is faulty and erroneous). As for fear (I think we all agree that we are not talking about fear the emotion, such as would be experienced when meeting a bear in the woods, but rather a spirit of fear or fear as a state of being) isn’t that unbelief?”
I would like to approach these first considering biblical characters, Elijah worried, especially when Jezebel was looking for him, Now this is a man who had seen many many works of GOD. What was God’s reply to Elijahs worries ? was it to kill him , shout at him or call him an unbeliever – no GOD comforted and assured him.
Do you think GOD would have done the same if Elijah had run into idol worship , Fornication , Murder ? clearly not. We have weaknesses of the flesh in certain areas. When Paul was afraid ( Acts 18:10 ) God comforted him and didnt not tell him he was weak in faith etc.
Sins are of different categories my friend and God does NOT view them all equally this is clear in His word which you yourself quoted, As we just saw getting scared of things occasionally is the human nature just as getting tired / angry ( righteous anger ) etc are. Didnt Jesus get tired , Angry at times – We have a human nature for now you must never forget this or in your striving for perfection now you will become disheartened. By all mean seek Holiness knowing that the day will come when perfection is yours if you continue in the faith.
As regards the Revelation scripture you quoted i always consider it this way, Many years ago being a JW as God showed me through scripture that i was not truly following Him i began to discuss this with an elder at the local congregation after i had excommunicated myself we had one last chat. He openly admitted he knew there were doctrinal errors and what i had shown him was true. I was horrified at the reason he hadnt left the Jw’s or told anyone “Because its all i have ever known and everyone would turn against me” Thats being fearful ! of Standing up for our Lord before the liars and teachers of falsehood denying our Lord for our own comfort etc.
The statement you arrived at “and without perfection no one enters the kingdom of God.” If you can be perfect my friend why would Gods only begotten have to die for us ? You will attain perfection only when the kingdom is fully restored ( IE: all wickedness removed ) We all carry the sin of Adam, This is the sin which Jesus forgives . To be perfect you must fulfill ALL of the law – an impossible task except for Messiah who did this for us in order to save us from our Sins.
Now do not think I am playing down sin – it is the vilest thing and all sin is lawlessness. Just please consider what you are saying carefully “there are no minor sins, all deserve damnation” if you say this then you deny the scripture that says there are different levels of sin for instance please study Hebrews 6: 1-6 , this clearly shows sin a person cannot be forgiven of ! However we know that GOD forgives our sins this must be taken as a whole, Is this a licence to sin because we are under Grace? of course not.
You are right to say nothing impure will enter the kingdom of Heaven now if you study Galatians chapter 5- 6 you will have a list along with the revelation you mentioned of the types of people who WILL NEVER inherit the kingdom of heaven. Should a person who claims Godliness live Holy ? Please read Titus chapter 2 for a wonderful understanding.
By the way if you can find a scripture that says other than the things i have said i will happily accept it.
In all things i have said I hope i havent seemed harsh as that was not the intention, and the closer we walk to God the better for us and our true brothers and sisters.
Regards
Ade

Noted and thank you Jeff , I will try to keep everything in its relative place as it can become a bit of a minefield >:)

HI Carl,
I must agree with Jeff’s point that your last comment seemed a little OSAS in tone , maybe i have misunderstood it. What i would appreciate is if you would take a look at the scripture i mentioned Titus chapter 2 in its entirety and discuss the facts therein.
Basically i understand your point that because we accept Christ He has fulfilled the law in is. But as Jeff rightly pointed out we must be “In Christ Jesus” for this to apply. This means that although we are saved initially by Grace we have a large part to play in keeping ourselves in Christ as you have previously stated it is OUR responsibility to pursue a life pleasing to GOD and walk in a manner worthy of Him in all respects bearing fruit in all good works ( Colossians 2:10 ) for we know that the tree which bears no fruit is good for nothing but being thrown into the fire ( destroyed ) this is clear in Matthew 13:1-9 many people try to apply the latter verses 6-9 to Israel as a whole, This cannot be true as taken in context the words of Jesus are about people repenting He therefore states that people have ime to repent but will be cut down if they do not within the time God has given them.
Now it is my unfortunate duty to inform you that you missed the most important verses of Phil 8 in the tradition of OSAS – you abruptly ended your proofing at verse 10 ! but let us examine what Paul says immeadiately after that ;
11in order that I may attain to the resurrection from the dead.
12Not that I have already obtained it or have already (AB)become perfect, but I press on so that I may lay hold of that for which also I was laid hold of by (AE)Christ Jesus.
13Brethren, I do not regard myself as having laid hold of it yet; but one thing I do: (AF)forgetting what lies behind and reaching forward to what lies ahead,
14I press on toward the goal for the prize of the (AH)upward call of God in Christ Jesus.
15Let us therefore, as many as are perfect ( Mature is the correct rendering of this word not perfect ) have this attitude; and if in anything you have a different attitude, God will reveal that also to you;
16however, let us keep (AM)living by that same standard to which we have attained.
17Brethren, join in following my example, and observe those who walk according to the (AO)pattern you have in us.
18For many walk, of whom I often told you, and now tell you even weeping, that they are enemies of the cross of Christ,
19whose end is destruction, whose god is their appetite, and whose glory is in their shame, who set their minds on earthly things.
So as we can see from these things even though Paul knew we are saved only By Grace initially, after receiving the Spirit of God we are expected to live Holy and blameless to the end of our lives! If even Paul says he does not regard himself as having laid hold of the prize how can we do so. He actually says he will ive to the standard he has done observing a pattern knowing that this will lead him to the prize.
Regards
Adrian

I do agree that the NIV is a very problematic translation. I use the NASB myself. It’s a very reliable and accurate translation. Here is some info on it: http://www.biblegateway.com/versions/New-American-Standard-Bible-NASB/ . I’m not an expert on the theology of worry either, so don’t worry. I’m just checking what is being presented against what I have believed and currently believe to be so in order to reaffirm truths and replace falsehoods with truth.
-Carl

you conditional security people didn’t work ya’ll way to salvation but now ya’ll think ya’ll can work ya’ll way out john 10:27 says my sheep hear my voice i know them and they follow me he didn’t say they follow and they fall away nor did he say they follow for a little while he simply says they follow me and you people say we can pluck our own self out of his hand well if thats true i would like to see ya’ll answer isaiah 49:16 where he says how christ has his sheep engraved in his hand.

well i dont agree with dan corner saying one sin can rob a christian of his salvation thats like saying certain sins have more authority over grace by which that cant make sense (romans 5:20) if it does then i have to make sure im observing the ones that do so i dont commit them by which that’s also nonsensical (roman 3:20) (galations 2:16) (hebrews 7:19) im not gonna serve christ and the law at the same time im gonna follow christ and christ only not the law because its put in charge to lead us to christ not to observe it (galations 3:10) (galations 3:11) i ordered the believer’s conditional security basically should be coming in pretty soon ill see whats going in this book by which if every thing is accurate and lines up with the truth then that might just convinced me to change my decision by which i hope he got every scripture lined up in its proper place for 801 pages 700 footnotes of refutation.

this typing is aching my fingers lol

i really could care less about which side is right my only concern is sticking to god’s word and making sure i get to heaven and escape hell.

can somebody explain to me the parable of the talents and what do they mean in jesus teachings im very concern about that topic.

perphaps lets examine mr fenske’s view of being saved again if its possible.(Hebrews 6:4-6) it amazes me how people overlook the if in verse 6 since that answer’s verse 9

god chasens those he receives (hebrews 12:6-8) if you are without chasement he says you’re bastards not you have loss your salvation are you cease to be a son he says you never were a son those in matthew chapter 7 that say lord lord look at the wonderful things we done jesus says i never knew you,not i knew you for a lil while are you was doing really well till you messed up are backslid,my last response is this;if jesus have to come back on that cross and shed his blood like bulls and goats in the old testament how many times would he have to do it since even christian makes mistakes in there life seems to me that he would probably have to shed his blood on that cross over a billion times by which it’s a tragedy.

Adam and Eve never lost their salvation when they sinned. Sin just created a boundary in-between God and man. As Corner says, in some situations we can lose our salvation. That would then imply that every time we sin, or lose our salvation, as Corner puts it, we would then have to ask God into our hearts again. This is false. The Bible says that we will go through trials and temptations, being a Christian is always a work in progress. There is never a point where you will be fully satisfied with your relationship with God, because humans are naturally sinful! This is what happened ever since the fall, that is why the road to salvation is difficult. If we believed that we could live perfectly somehow on this earth, we deceive ourselves because while we are still on this earth, we will always be blocked by that barrier of sin that separates us from God. “Our sins are higher than our heads and our guilt has reached to the heavens.” Ezra 9:6. Our only hope is to accept that we are sinful and embrace the perfect righteousness of Jesus Christ as our own thorough our legal bound.
I also don’t understand why predestination is considered false. In stating that it is it means that God’s plan isn’t really a plan, it’s more of a structure that God set up and we just play around in. It completely undermines the reality that God is omnipotent in every situation, to every human-being. Predestination is in the Bible! What??? Yes! It is! In Romans 9:15 it says. “I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion.” And in Ephesians Paul tells us that we have been predestined according to God’s will. This means that every act of salvation in the heart of an individual is because God willed it to be so. Those who believe that it is completely up to them are convincing themselves that they somehow control God’s plan and the result of what happens was a little of God and a little of them. They think that they can control God’s plan and mold it around themselves. Who is man to question the will of God? Romans 9:21 ” Has the potter no right over the clay, to make out of the same lump done vessel for honorable use and another for dishonorable use?”

ok mr. fenske im back and i would like to start by hearing your view on romans 8:13 since you dan corner and any others apperently see this passage as man’s responsibility to live righteous do you mean we have to stop living this way by our own efforts are is it through christ we put an end to it and im going to respond back my view on it once i heard yours, i believe this is a fair way we can answer each others reply to our views on these scriptures, but im glad that you’re actually taking out time to help people with the hard work that you put forth so far on this website.

okay im back now sorry for the delay,now lets examine mr. fenkskes view of rev 3:5 apparently dan corners and everyone else thinks this verse is a warning but before we use our own opinions on this verse mabye we should let the apostle who wrote about overcoming explain it for himself and why. (1 john 5:4) (1 john 2:13) mr fenske apparently believes once your name is in the book you have to overcome for it not to be erased seems as though he forgot that you’re already an overcomer so this passage doesn’t sound like a warning but a promise that im glad of since the same john who wrote about it must have the answer to it. and now mr fenske posted its dangerous for me to use emphasis on matthew 7:23,im not over emphasising matthew 7:23 he clearly tells those kind of people i never knew you. im gonna prove to you that matthew 7:23 is directly stated to people that was never saved,notice he tells them depart from me workers of iniquity.what is a worker? im sure we all know the definition to that. (1 john 3:6) says know one who keeps own sinning has either seen him nor known him. so these people who’s called workers of iniquity dont know him wherefore he says depart from me i knever knew you not i knew you for a lil while. im gonna reply with something else when i get more time in that i cited on this website that i have an answer for.

Its amazing how mr fenske accuses me of misusing Romans 8:13 but what does Romans 8:13 say? It says if you mortify the deeds of the flesh you will die but if by the Spirit you put to death the deeds of the body you will live.How do we put the deeds of the flesh to death mr fenske?notice he gives us the answer he says if by what we put to death the deeds of the flesh the Spirit thats how we put it to death not our own ability.Anytime you see Spirit with a capital S its the spirit of god.and mr fenske also brought up john 15 apparently i assume he means the first 8 verses so lets begin by examinig these (john 15:1) I am the true vine, and my Father is the husbandman.(john 15:2) Every branch in me that bears not fruit he takes away: and every branch that bears fruit, he prunes it, that it may bring forth more fruit.I assume mr fenske believes jesus is addresing this verse to christians but is that what the bible is addressing this passage to lets find out by seeing what jesus said in the parable of the sower.(luke 8:11-15)notice verse 15 proves the only ones that bring forth fruit is the ones that hear the word and keep it there was never a passage where i seen a christian bringing forth fruit temporarily.John 15:2 is implied to those that doesn’t bring fruit because they never were true followers of christ.(john 15:3) when jesus told his disicple they were already clean It does not mean that they were perfect, but that they had been under a process of purifying by his instructions all the time he had been with them. He had removed their erroneous notions of the Messiah; he had gradually reclaimed them from their fond and foolish views respecting earthly honors; he had taught them to be willing to forsake all things; and he had so trained and disciplined them that immediately after his death they would be ready to go and bear fruit among all nations to the honor of his name,judas was excluded from this group when jesus said this see (john 13:10) and they were now all true followers of christ. (john 15:4) Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, except it abide in the vine; no more can you, except you abide in me.
(john 15:5) I am the vine, you are the branches: He that abides in me, and I in him, the same brings forth much fruit: for without me you can do nothing.
notice the only way we can bear fruit is to remain in christ cause this will determine if we are truly in christ by which mr fenske didn’t get it. (john 15:6) If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned.I hope mr fenske studied ezekiel 15 1-8 before looking into (john 15:6). (john 15:7) If ye abide in me, and my words abide in you, ye shall ask what ye will, and it shall be done unto you.finally the the most important verse that answers this whole passage (john 15:8) In this is my Father glorified, that you bear much fruit; so shall you be my disciples.notice he said we are his disciples only when we bear fruit,so again mr fenske gave me yet another passage that has nothing to do with losing your salavtion but yet another promise that i am connected to christ since i bear fruit and those that dont bear fruit was never his disciple according to verse 8 glory be to god.

after examining the post on this blog about (john 10:27-28) we including Dan Corner and other people gave our opinions on it now lets see what the prophet Isaiah and Jeremiah says about it (Isaiah 66:22) For as the new heavens and the new earth, which I will make, shall remain before me, saith the LORD, so shall your seed and your name remain. (Isaiah 27:3) I the LORD do keep it; I will water it every moment: lest any hurt it, I will keep it night and day. (Isaiah 58:11) And the LORD shall guide you continually, and satisfy your soul in drought, and strengthen your bones: and you shall be like a watered garden, and like a spring of water, whose waters fail not.
lets examing this important verse here ,notice he said you shall be like a watered garden, and like a spring of water, whose waters fail not,and compare this with (john 7:38) He that believeth on me, as the scripture hath said, out of his belly shall flow rivers of living water. (John 4:14) But whosoever drinketh of the water that I shall give him shall never thirst; but the water that I shall give him shall be in him a well of water springing up into everlasting life.(jeremiah 2:13) For my people have committed two evils; they have forsaken me the fountain of living waters, and hewed themselves out cisterns, broken cisterns, that can hold no water. (john 4:10) Jesus answered and said unto her, If thou knewest the gift of God, and who it is that saith to thee, Give me to drink; thou wouldest have asked of him, and he would have given thee living water.

Well im not excatly sure about who says that its impossible to depart from the faith but after a theral research and examination of this my understanding to this is that he uses this,ill paste it the key words here (1 tim 4:1) Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils; The Greek word here – ἀποστήσονται apostēsontai – is that from which we have derived the word “apostatize,” and would be properly so rendered here. The meaning is, that they would “apostatize” from the belief of the truths of the gospel. It does not mean that, as individuals, they would have been true Christians; but that there would be a departure from the great doctrines which constitute the Christian faith. The ways in which they would do this are immediately specified, showing what the apostle meant here by departing from the faith. They would give heed to seducing spirits, to the doctrines of devils, etc. The use of the word “some,” here τινες tines – does not imply that the number would be small. The meaning is, that “certain persons” would thus depart, or that “there would be” an apostasy of the kind here mentioned, (1 john 4:1) Dear friends, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits to see whether they are from God, because many false prophets have gone out into the world. (1 john 4:2) This is how you can recognize the Spirit of God: Every spirit that acknowledges that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is from God, (1 john 4:3) And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that spirit of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world.

The contending parties have been Calvinists and Arminians; each party, in general, interpreting it according to the views which are held on the question about falling from grace. I shall endeavor, as well as I may be able, to state the true meaning of the passage by an examination of the words and phrases in detail, observing here, in general, that it seems to me that it refers to true Christians; that the object is to keep them from apostasy, and that it teaches that if they should apostatize, it would be impossible to renew them again or to save them. That it refers to true Christians will be apparent from these considerations.
(1) Such is the sense which would strike the great mass of readers. Unless there were some theory to defend, the great body of readers of the New Testament would consider the expression used here as describing true Christians. (2) The connection demands such an interpretation. The apostle was addressing Christians. He was endeavoring to keep them from apostasy. The object was not to keep those who were awakened and enlightened from apostasy, but it was to preserve those who were already in the Church of Christ, from going back to perdition. The kind of exhortation appropriate to those who were awakened and convicted, but who were not truly converted, would be “to become converted;” not to warn them of the danger of “falling away.” Besides, the apostle would not have said of such persons that they could not be converted and saved. But of sincere Christians it might be said with the utmost propriety, that they could not be renewed again and be saved if they should fall away – because they rejected the only plan of salvation after they had tried it, and renounced the only scheme of redemption after they had tasted its benefits. If that plan could not save them, what could? If they neglected that, by what other means could they be brought to God? (3) as I suppose, with the exact meaning of the phrases which the apostle uses. An examination of those phrases will show that he refers to those who are sincere believers. The phrase “it is impossible” obviously and properly denotes absolute impossibility. It has been contended, by others, that it denotes only great difficulty. But the meaning which would at first strike all readers would be that “the thing could not be done;” that it was not merely very difficult, but absolutely impracticable. The word – ἀδύνατον adunaton – occurs only in the New Testament in the following places, in all which it denotes that the thing could not be done; We find out in these scriptures that it cannot be done (Matthew 19:24) And again I say unto you, It is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle, than for a rich man to enter into the kingdom of God. (Matthew 19:25) When his disciples heard it, they were exceedingly amazed, saying, Who then can be saved? (Romans 8:3) For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh: that is, to save people; (Hebrews 6:18) That by two immutable things, in which it was impossible for God to lie, we might have a strong consolation, who have fled for refuge to lay hold upon the hope set before us:
These passages show that it is not merely a great difficulty to which the apostle refers, but that he meant to say that the thing was wholly impracticable; that it could not be done. And if this be the meaning, then it proves that if those referred to should fall away, they could never be renewed. Their case was hopeless, and they must perish: that is, if a true Christian should apostatize, or fall from grace, “he never could be renewed again,” and could not be saved. Paul did not teach that he might fall away and be renewed again as often as he pleased. He had other views of the grace of God than this; and he meant to teach, that if a man should once cast off true religion, his case was hopeless, and he must perish; and by this solemn consideration – the only one that would be effectual in such a case – he meant to guard them against the danger of apostasy.

(Hebrews 10:26) For if we sin willfully after we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remains no more sacrifice for sins, If after we are converted and become true Christians we should apostatize, it would be impossible to be recovered again, for there would be no other sacrifice for sin; no way by which we could be saved. This passage, however, like Hebrews 6:4-6, has given rise to much difference of opinion. But that the above is the correct interpretation, seems evident to me from the following considerations: (1) It is the natural and obvious interpretation, such as would occur probably to ninety-nine readers in a hundred, if there were no theory to support, and no fear that it would conflict with some other doctrine. (2) it accords with the scope of the Epistle, which is, to keep those whom the apostle addressed from returning again to the Jewish religion, under the trials to which they were subjected. (3) it is in accordance with the fair meaning of the language – the words “after that we have received the knowledge of the truth,” referring more naturally to true conversion than to any other state of mind. (4) the sentiment would not be correct if it referred to any but real Christians. It would not be true that one who had been somewhat enlightened, and who then sinned “wilfully,” must look on fearfully to the judgment without a possibility of being saved. There are multitudes of cases where such persons are saved. They “wilfully” resist the Holy Spirit; they strive against him; they for a long time refuse to yield, but they are brought again to reflection, and are led to give their hearts to God. (5) it is true, and always will be true, that if a sincere Christian should apostatize he could never be converted again; see the notes on Hebrews 6:4-6. The reasons are obvious. He would have tried the only plan of salvation, and it would have failed. He would have embraced the Saviour, and there would not have been efficacy enough in his blood to keep him, and there would be no more powerful Saviour and no more efficacious blood of atonement. He would have renounced the Holy Spirit, and would have shown that his influences were not effectual to keep him, and there would be no other agent of greater power to renew and save him after he had apostatized. For these reasons it seems clear to me that this passage refers to true Christians, and that the doctrine here taught is, that if such an one should apostatize, he must look forward only to the terrors of the judgment, and to final condemnation. This and this only is the sin unto death by which one can never be restored if it were possible. (1 john 5:16) If any man see his brother sin a sin which is not unto death, he shall ask, and he shall give him life for them that sin not unto death. There is a sin unto death: I do not say that he shall pray for it. (1 john 5:17) All unrighteousness is sin: and there is a sin not unto death. Now If the sin here mentioned refers to “temporal” death, it means such a sin that temporal death must inevitably follow, either by the disease which it has produced, or by a judicial sentence where there was no hope of pardon or of a commutation of the punishment; if it refers to death in the future world, the second death, then it means such a sin as is unpardonable. That this last is the reference here seems to me to be probable, if not clear, from the following considerations: I’ll put in another post.

To those interested:
God is indeed long-suffering, probably for the gospel to become available to all people and of His mercy, wanting people to repent.
However, our heavenly Father is also a God of limitations. We can know this from numerous examples and judgments, for example, in Judges with its display of cycles; 1 Samuel and its time of transition; 1 Kings, division of the kingdom; 2 Kings, captivities of the kingdom; Jeremiah, Judah’s last hour; lamentations; Joel, the great and terrible day of the Lord; Amos, the judgment of Israel; Obadiah, the judgment of Edom; aspects of judgment in Micah; Nahum, judgment of Nineveh, and so on.
In the New Testament, 1 Corinthians gives important reminders against carnal living; First Thessalonians calls for holiness in light of Christ’s forthcoming return; James speaks about having a faith that works; the need to be on guard against false teachers is given in 2 Peter and also, according to 2 John, our warning to avoid fellowship with false teachers; and then in Jude that it’s necessary for a believer to contend for the faith which, of course, really wouldn’t be necessary if it were truly just “once saved, always saved!”
I say all of this because truly today is the day of salvation. What if we’re in an unexpected fatal accident? Or, we might experience a stroke as did a loved one in my family who no longer had her memory, speech and reckoning of mind.
For these reasons and more, I regard the Hebrews passage whereof it says “impossible” to mean impossible. In humility I don’t fight the Word.
Admittedly I, too, at one time casually adhered to the widespread teaching of “once saved, always saved!” no matter what a person does as always the outcome. That’s what I had been told, even by preachers!
It was only after reading the Bible regularly and seriously that I was allowed to understand many passages which soundly refute OSAS. What’s needed is the whole counsel of God Who flies His truth on two wings. We see this dichotomy in sovereignty as well as man’s responsibility of what’s done with and through His grace. Before us there’s both good and evil; the positive and the negative; the encouraging and the dire warnings; blessings and curses; heaven and hell. To those who will receive this truth it becomes apparent that John Bunyan was right in Pilgrim’s Progress, that believers have a great confidence AND a great caution. These features are intertwined relationally with impact upon the other. They are not antithetical in purpose but rather are most assuredly within the core of God’s unfolding Biblical program.
Don’t be deceived, as are many, for the either/or logical fallacy. Very simply, right before us, actually quite obvious, there wouldn’t be all the warnings in the Bible unless there were a need for them. This, in itself, proves the fallacy of today’s prevalent ease of belief upon an initial momentary profession – which is necessary – as if that’s all that’s needed when it’s really just the inception toward reaching the celestial city.
Notice 2 Peter 1:10-11, “Therefore, my brothers, BE ALL THE MORE EAGER TO MAKE YOUR CALLING AND ELECTION SURE. For IF YOU DO THESE THINGS, YOU WILL NEVER FALL, and YOU WILL RECEIVE A RICH WELCOME INTO THE ETERNAL KINGDOM OF OUR LORD AND SAVIOR JESUS CHRIST.” Really?! What does this mean?
Go to verse 3 and following, especially v v 5-7, “For this very reason, make every effort to add to your faith goodness; and to goodness, knowledge; and to knowledge, self-control; and to self-control, perseverance; and to perseverance, godliness; and to godliness, brotherly kindness; and to brotherly kindness, love.” That’s our call. May you and I know this truth and then remember and put into practice God’s guidance.
Yet some people say, “I’m sealed by the Holy Spirit and nothing can keep me out of heaven.”
The accurate and helpful response is to think of our need to be Signed, Sealed and Delivered! I write this since being sealed means being in the Holy Spirit and having the Holy Spirit within one’s own body as its temple ( 1 Cor 6:19-20) which is to be a holy place. Therefore, the thought of any number of sins lets us know whether we truly are sealed, that is, whether there’s the LORD’S ownership, His power in effect, and whether He’s glorified. Otherwise, we’ve been co-opted and it’s a matter of deception.
God bless you and me as we seek to follow Him in His will.

Hi Jeff ~ I appreciate your site and I like your comments. Thanks!
I just read your above comments and wanted to rewrite, in a better way, my earlier writing. I tried to soften it as I don’t want to come across as harsh. Anyway, I see that I’ve ended up with a lengthy piece. Therefore, if you want to delete my earlier postings or not feature this entry I can accept that. It’s your site. ~And yes, I was Lutheran so there’s been a big change in my belief.
Well, here’s what I thought was my improved writing, but you’re right about length, and I do understand. Thanks, R.E.R.
Not that I know everything, but I do have concern about the doctrine of “once saved, always saved!” as necessarily always true when its proponents say a person can’t die spiritually. I read Luke 15:24, 32 and am unable to deny its message and validation by 2 Tim 3:16-17. It’s the same with 2 Peter 2:20-22 which, to me, speaks a warning. I heard a minister preach on Heb 6:4-6, read all five of what I should think would be attention-getting phrases, and after each one, the minister stated exactly the opposite of what the text says. I asked myself, “Why did he do that?” Possibly he did it because the pastor is backed into a corner by “once saved, always saved!” (OSAS).
A man in a small group heard 1 Tim 1:19-20 about “shipwrecked faith” and, apparently instead of accepting it as an example for us, he remarked that “shipwrecked faith” had nothing to do with salvation!
Genesis, I believe, in effect, contains the first use of “once saved, always saved!” spoken by Satan when he pronounced “Ye shall not surely die.” Isn’t it worthy of consideration whether this denial of spiritual death remains an enormously destructive ploy of the devil?
May I suggest that besides Vernon McGee, John MacArthur, Charles Stanley, Charles Ryrie…and so forth readings from William Graham Scroggie, Adam Clarke, A.W. Tozer, J.C. Ryle, Matthew Henry, Richard Baxter… In my opinion, they seem to be on target, Biblically.
My belief is that I accept the Bible as inspired by the Holy Spirit. I don’t think it likely that God The Holy Spirit speaks in suppositions or the hypothetical but rather in the stability of truth.
The Bible does warn about those who promote falsehood, Matt 7:15-16, 21-23; 2 Cor 11:13-15; 2 Tim 4:2-4; Rev 22:18-19 and other places. Manipulators, false teachers and false preachers, some even unaware themselves as being false, turn truth into pretzel-shaped distortions. Sometimes they dismiss bothersome passages as merely hypothetical or of some alleged supposition.
In all of this I think it’s a good idea for me to rely on the whole counsel of God. “Weeping and gnashing of teeth” means weeping and gnashing of teeth and “forever and ever” means what it says.
More than indications, it seems that there’s proof that the slogan of “once saved, always saved!” is not always the case. 1 Tim 4:1 indicates that eternal life can be forfeited: “Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith…” How can I deny that to depart from the faith is not “once saved, always saved!”?
Being of the OSAS persuasion, William MacDonald writes in his commentary, “The fact that these people depart or fall away from the faith does not mean they were ever saved [that they had real faith], but simply that they had professed to be Christians,” (MacDonald, William; Believer’s Bible Commentary; p. 2091; Thomas Nelson Publishers; Nashville; c. 1995.)
I want to think carefully about this. The Bible declares that the Spirit speaketh. That’s God! How does He speak? “Expressly” which means “for the express purpose” or “in an explicit manner.” The Spirit’s words leave nothing to mere implication. I know we’re in “the latter times” which would be any time subsequent from the Apostle Paul’s writing. Yes, I am in the latter times. Click! I can understand that. “Some shall depart from the faith.” Click! I can also understand that.
Yet MacDonald would have us believe that some did not really depart from the faith because, according to him, they never had it, just a phony profession. What straining to deny what “the Spirit speaketh expressly!” It’s from reliance upon the “once saved, always saved!” slogan. Ask yourself: “Can I depart from Kansas City unless my presence is in Kansas City?” MacDonald is asking readers to believe that some can depart from the faith when they never really had the faith! Obviously, we don’t depart from what we never had!
Along with this, it appears that many preachers and churches hold to unconditional security and twisted Calvinism. Thereby a probability comes about of seriously failing to show spiritual care and duty toward members’ eternal welfare.
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To those interested:
God is indeed long-suffering for the gospel to become available to all people and of His mercy, wanting people to repent.
However, our heavenly Father is also a God of limitations. We can know this from numerous examples and judgments, for example, in Judges with its display of cycles; 1 Samuel and its time of transition; 1 Kings, division of the kingdom; 2 Kings, captivities of the kingdom; Jeremiah, Judah’s last hour; lamentations; Joel, the great and terrible day of the Lord; Amos, the judgment of Israel; Obadiah, the judgment of Edom; aspects of judgment in Micah; Nahum, judgment of Nineveh, and so on.
In the New Testament, 1 Corinthians gives important reminders against carnal living; First Thessalonians calls for holiness in light of Christ’s forthcoming return; James speaks about having a faith that works; the need to be on guard against false teachers is given in 2 Peter and also, according to 2 John, our warning to avoid fellowship with false teachers; and then in Jude that it’s necessary for a believer to contend for the faith which, of course, doesn’t seem necessary if it were “once saved, always saved!”
I say all of this because “today is the day of salvation.” What if I were in an unexpected fatal accident? Or, I might experience a stroke as did my loved one in our family who no longer had her memory, speech and reckoning of mind.
This partly shapes my thinking for why I regard the Hebrews 6 passage whereof it says “impossible” to mean impossible. In humility, I don’t want to fight the Word.
Admittedly, I, too, at one time casually adhered to the widespread teaching of “once saved, always saved!” no matter what a person does. I believed that since that’s what I had been told, even by preachers!
Fortunately, after Biblical preaching and reading the Bible regularly and seriously I came to understand and accept that many passages soundly refute OSAS as always the outcome.
Very wise men, A.W. Tozer and Roger J. Magnuson, in effect, indicated that what’s needed is the whole counsel of God Who flies His truth on two wings. We see this dichotomy in sovereignty as well as man’s responsibility of what’s done with and through His grace. Before us, there’s both good and evil; the positive and the negative; the encouraging and the dire warnings; blessings and curses; heaven and hell…eternal life and damnation.
To those who have this perspective, it falls in line with what John Bunyan set before the world in his great classic, Pilgrim’s Progress.
The Bible importantly makes sense. The believer has “a great confidence AND a great caution.” These features are intertwined relationally with impact upon the other, not antithetical in purpose. Rather, the duality is within the core of God’s unfolding Biblical program.
Again, I certainly don’t know everything. However, I do know that I can’t save myself, and I do know how to be saved.
Like Joseph, I want to live in the seven words of Gen 41:16, “It is not in me: God shall…” This involves an “admission” of my lack of ability, followed by an “acknowledgment” that it is God. Together this leads to “assurance.” Amazingly, Joseph’s spiritual secret can be transplanted to me. Wonderful, as Joseph’s spiritual secret is a necessity for sanctification, service and salvation.
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The “either/or” logical fallacy causes deception. That’s why very simply, right before us, actually quite obvious, there wouldn’t be many warnings in the Bible unless there were a need for them and the inverse, negative outcome of them happening. This, in itself, proves the fallacy of today’s prevalent ease of belief upon an initial momentary profession as all that’s needed. That’s the inception, not the end, before reaching the celestial city. As Magnuson succinctly stated, there’s a forgotten metaphor, a forgotten mission, and a forgotten “must.” I’m a pilgrim on a path and there’s a great peril. The mission is to reach the Celestial City. The “must” is righteousness, imputed, imparted and inspected.
2 Peter 1:10-11 catches my attention. “Therefore, my brothers, BE ALL THE MORE EAGER TO MAKE YOUR CALLING AND ELECTION SURE. For IF YOU DO THESE THINGS, YOU WILL NEVER FALL, and YOU WILL RECEIVE A RICH WELCOME INTO THE ETERNAL KINGDOM OF OUR LORD AND SAVIOR JESUS CHRIST.” I think I see what this means when I go to verse 3 and following, especially verses 5-7, “For this very reason, make every effort to add to your faith goodness; and to goodness, knowledge; and to knowledge, self-control; and to self-control, perseverance; and to perseverance, godliness; and to godliness, brotherly kindness; and to brotherly kindness, love.” Now I understand to what I’m called. May I not only know this truth but remember and put it into practice, even when someone offends me.
Finally, I’ve been thinking about being “sealed by the Holy Spirit.” My understanding is that I need to be Signed, Sealed and Delivered! Being sealed means being in the Holy Spirit and having the Holy Spirit within one’s own body as its temple which is to be a holy place (1 Cor 6:19-20). Therefore, the thought of any number of sins lets me know whether I’m truly sealed, that is, whether there’s the LORD’S ownership, His power in effect, and whether He’s glorified.
Without this, it’s a matter of being co-opted by the devil and a matter of deception.
God bless all of us as we seek to follow Him in His will.
———————–
What’s needed is belief that is BELIEVING; faith that is FAITHFULNESS, present indicative, continuing.
For example, I find it helpful to turn to the book of Revelation and consider its verses about my need for “overcoming.”
Also, I didn’t use to fully notice it, but now I note that Matt 10:22 doesn’t say, (And ye shall be hated of all men for my name’s sake: but he who had a one-time momentary profession, regardless of how he lived thereafter, shall be saved.) No, here’s the description: “And ye shall be hated of all men for my name’s sake: but he that ENDURETH TO THE END shall be saved. Nor does Matthew 24:13 say, (But he who had a one-time profession, the same shall be saved.) Rather, here’s what God says, “But he that shall ENDURE UNTO THE END, the same shall be saved.” As you and I know, today’s widespread vogue of teaching/preaching is an emphasis that all we have to do is receive Christ and that’s it!
It surely is required to receive Christ as our Savior for salvation, but that’s the inception, not the end. As a believer I am focused upon the ending, not the beginning. Therefore, in the same way, Rom 2:7 doesn’t say, (To those who once-upon-a-time accepted Jesus will most certainly end up with an immortality of eternal life.)
Instead, “the glory-seeker,” according to God’s counsel, is characterized in this way: “To them who by patient CONTINUANCE in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life,” specifically talking about salvation, not just rewards.
My journey has had reactive turns toward me. An observation that saddens me is this. After I came to a different conviction from OSAS, that there are conditional aspects about being in Christ, some OSAS people became cold and unloving. One used to call me “friend” every time he answered my phone calls.
Now he won’t even communicate with me. Another cut off interaction as well and didn’t follow-through with what he said he’d do, not keeping his word.
After three or four years of no response to our family Christmas greeting, we obviously recognize their changed behavior. It doesn’t seem loving. These are people who insist that it’s “once saved, always saved!”
I do not judge their or anyone else’s salvation.
However, when I read and meditate upon 1 John 3:1-24 it does make me think, in a general sense, about who will and who won’t be going to heaven.
To anyone taking the time to read this, thanks!
Love in Christ ~ R.E.R.

plenty of people also stress the issue that water baptism is required for salvation but is this true? is water baptism really required for salvation? and what about the gift of speaking in tongues? Sorry but thought I might ask since this blog is dealing with salvation thanks.

Thanks for the response, I grew up being taught by Pentecostals that speaking in tongues is evidence proving that one has the holy spirit but throughout my entire life I never once spoke in tongues but they say im not saved if im not speaking in tongues this concept is very confusing to me because many people that do speak in tongues by which is like saying that only they’re the ones that’s being led by the holy spirit and not others who aren’t. I tried doing some research on Dan Corner’s evangelical outreach website but i couldn’t find no scriptures proving if speaking in tongues is evidence that only such have the holy spirit. I still don’t think such people has to speak in tongues to prove that they have the holy spirit cause that would mean all my efforts of trying to live according to the will of god would be in vain. If you are any other person can post scriptures for me on this issue it would be greatly appreciated.

I have another question that I forgot to ask. Is Grace an unmerited Favor like most really believe it to be I have few scriptures I came across that contradicts that idea (Titus 2:11) For the grace of God that brings salvation has appeared to all men, (2 timothy 1:10) but it has now been revealed through the appearing of our Savior, Christ Jesus, who has destroyed death and has brought life and immortality to light through the gospel. (Psalms 67:1) God be merciful unto us, and bless us; and cause his face to shine upon us; Selah. (Psalms 67:2) That thy way may be known upon earth, thy saving health among all nations.

It’s been reported that Dave Hunt has passed away.