“God is love, and HE WHO REMAINS IN LOVE remains in God, and GOD REMAINS IN HIM. In this, love has been made perfect among us, that we may have BOLDNESS [‘confidence’ – NIV, ESV, NASB…] IN THE DAY of judgment, *because* AS HE IS, even SO ARE WE in this world.” – 1 John 4:16-17
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THE GUARDRAIL: “It’s not a fence; it’s a guardrail!”
God’s commandments are there for our protection, not to confine us. We ignore them to our own peril. February 16, 2014
Jesus’ GREATEST TWO COMMANDMENTS:
“LOVE THE LORD your God WITH ALL of your heart, soul, mind and strength, and YOUR NEIGHBOR AS YOURSELF”:
• • •
On 1/14/12, the 4 year anniversary of this post, I pulled my $6,000 challenge, which ran for almost 2 years (mostly at $6,000). No one has been able to refute this straight Bible truth about who really goes to heaven and who really are the children of God according to what the New Testament says.
“Once saved, always saved (OSAS)” and “it’s hard to lose one’s salvation” is being taught almost universally in these great days of deception. The Bible predicted this time we’re living in right now!:
“For the time will come when they will not listen to the sound doctrine, but, having itching ears, will heap up for themselves teachers after their own lusts; and will turn away their ears from the truth, and turn aside to fables” (2 Tim. 4:3,4).
Once saved, always saved a doctrine of demons, a heresy, actually, that is destroying our land and sending many into eternal darkness, thinking they are going to heaven. And it will be flame on for many teachers, especially, who will get “a stricter judgment” for misleading the people from believing the many clear warnings in scripture.
This is not a joke or a game. This is serious!!!
On the positive side, Jesus stated in John 17 that He would give us His glory so we’d be ‘ONE’ with each other in Him. Then the world would know!
Sound doctrine will bear much fruit. Unity will happen, because when we’re holy, worshiping in Spirit and in truth, God will draw near to us. And we’ll see a great revival, which may be called the Third Great Awakening, which should last until the end of days, because we finally accepted at face value what the Bible clearly says — not making excuses: ‘God didn’t really mean that.’ ‘Don’t worry, be happy.
I’ve been interested in this subject for about four decades, but I had a dream about 20 years ago in which I was told that I was in “danger of going to hell,” because I had been willfully lusting during a one or two week period while watching TV in the evening during a discouraging period in my life.
And then I heard an abbreviation of Jesus’ words in Mt. 5:27-30: ~”Anyone who looks at woman to lust after her commits adultery, and it’s better to pluck out your eye than for your whole body to be thrown into hell.”
My immediate reaction was: “Jesus, You’re serious!”
The fact that God is serious when He says something is the most important key to understanding the scriptures. If God says it He means it, regardless of what we would like it to mean. So when Jesus says ~”narrow is the way and few find it,” ‘narrow’ means narrow and ‘few’ really does mean few. Howard Pittman found this number to be 2.5%, and that was 30 years ago, before internet porn and the ‘low-cut top epidemic.’
So then we better not major on the nicer sounding passages from Paul’s intros and ignore the many straight-forward, conclusive texts in this essay which clearly lay out what is required to be a real, going-to-heaven Christian.
When we’re honest with the text and ourselves, we’ll find that the entire New Testament teaches the same thing. Our consciences must be clear from biblically abiding in the Vine according to Romans 8:1, all of it (the NIV and other truth-gutting translations took out 8:1b).
“There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.” KJV
Being ‘born-again’ is just the start. We must be holy, having clear consciences now so we’ll have clear consciences when we see Jesus face to face — and we’ll both smile big … : )
May we be ‘ONE’!!!
That the world will know — and we’ll be so happy…!
– Jeff : )
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This article has been online for 14 years. Because this issue is so crucial to almost everyone in so many ways, I’ve been offering a reward to anyone who can refute it — and no one has been able to.
So it appears this article has withstood the tests. Jesus really did mean: “narrow is the way” and “Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter into the Kingdom of Heaven; but he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven.”
It’s easy to say ‘Lord,’ but quite different to actually do His will: to make sure our hearts are right with Him and each other.
1 John 4:16,17:
We know and have believed the love which God has for us. God is love, and he who remains in love remains IN GOD, and God remains in him. In this[,] love has been made perfect among us, that we may have boldness [‘confidence’ – NIV, ESV, NASB…] in the day of judgment, because as he is, even so are we in this world.
Jeff Fenske
Anchorage, Alaska
I will give $6,000 to anyone who can refute my
“Who-Goes-To-Heaven Scriptures — Narrow is the Way” article
.
Who-Goes-To-Heaven Scriptures —
Narrow is the Way
By Jeff Fenske
Probably the greatest and most serious deception in the world is the misconception about what the Bible really teaches about who goes to heaven.
Many are being deceived, having not been taught the truth about what Jesus’ requires so that we will have boldness (and I’m hoping even a very big smile) when we stand before Jesus.
What follows is what I’ve learned from more than 30 years of studying and prayerfully thinking this through. I’ll start with a few words about being born-again, and then jump into the texts.
Being born-again is the start, but just the start—as is belief. We must abide in Him.
And infant baptism doesn’t qualify, because the person must make the decision, him or herself. “You must be born again” – Jesus.
John 3:1-8
1 Now there was a man of the Pharisees named Nicodemus, a ruler of the Jews. 2 The same came to him by night, and said to him, “Rabbi, we know that you are a teacher come from God, for no one can do these signs that you do, unless God is with him.” 3 Jesus answered him, “Most assuredly, I tell you, unless one is born anew [‘again’ KJV], he can’t see the Kingdom of God.” 4 Nicodemus said to him, “How can a man be born when he is old? Can he enter a second time into his mother’s womb, and be born?” 5 Jesus answered, “Most assuredly I tell you, unless one is born of water and spirit, he can’t enter into the Kingdom of God! 6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh. That which is born of the Spirit is spirit. 7 Don’t marvel that I said to you, ‘You must be born anew [‘again’ KJV].’ 8 The wind blows where it wants to, and you hear its sound, but don’t know where it comes from and where it is going. So is everyone who is born of the Spirit.”
Paul says in Romans 10 (I’ll quote more from Romans below):
9 that if you will confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. 10 For with the heart, one believes unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.
I found Hebrews 10:26 in 1975 as a senior in a Lutheran high school, having just a few months earlier made a serious decision to live my life for Christ, when I discovered the way of freedom by reading the book of Acts on my own.
When a friend told me about the eternal security doctrine, I read through the entire New Testament to see if it was true. Hebrews 10:26 cinched it for me, which I then quoted often, trying to help others see.
First, obedience being necessary for salvation was already clearly laid out five chapters earlier in Hebrews 5:
7 He [Christ], in the days of his flesh, having offered up prayers and petitions with strong crying and tears to him who was able to save him from death, and having been heard for his godly fear, 8 though he was a Son, yet learned obedience by the things which he suffered. 9 Having been made perfect, he became to all of those who obey him the author of eternal salvation….
Hebrews 10:26-39
26 For if we sin willfully after we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remains no more a sacrifice for sins, 27 but a certain fearful expectation of judgment, and a fierceness of fire which will devour the adversaries. 28 A man who disregards Moses’ law dies without compassion on the word of two or three witnesses. 29 How much worse punishment, do you think, will he be judged worthy of, who has trodden under foot the Son of God, and has counted the blood of the covenant with which he was sanctified an unholy thing, and has insulted the Spirit of grace? 30 For we know him who said, “Vengeance belongs to me,” says the Lord, “I will repay.” Again, “The Lord will judge his people.” 31 It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God. 32 But remember the former days, in which, after you were enlightened, you endured a great struggle with sufferings; 33 partly, being exposed to both reproaches and oppressions; and partly, becoming partakers with those who were treated so. 34 For you both had compassion on me in my chains, and joyfully accepted the plundering of your possessions, knowing that you have for yourselves a better possession and an enduring one in the heavens. 35 Therefore don’t throw away your boldness, which has a great reward. 36 For you need endurance so that, having done the will of God, you may receive the promise. 37 “In a very little while, He who comes will come, and will not wait. 38 But the righteous will live by faith. [Rom. 1:17 (Luther’s “only believe” theme song); Gal. 3:11] If he shrinks back, my soul has no pleasure in him.” 39 But we are not of those who shrink back to destruction, but of those who have faith to the saving of the soul.
Hebrews 12 continues the strong theme. Notice how the word grace is used in verses 15 and 28. Without sanctification no man will see the Lord. And please consider the disqualifier: any root of bitterness — an unforgiving heart — unless we forgive men and women their sins against us we can’t be forgiven (The Lord’s Prayer, shown further down):
14 Follow after peace with all men, and the sanctification without which no man will see the Lord, 15 looking carefully lest there be any man who falls short of the grace of God; lest any root of bitterness springing up trouble you, and many be defiled by it; 16 lest there be any sexually immoral person, or profane person, like Esau, who sold his birthright for one meal. 17 For you know that even when he afterward desired to inherit the blessing, he was rejected, for he found no place for a change of mind though he sought it diligently with tears. …
25 See that you don’t refuse him who speaks. For if they didn’t escape when they refused him who warned on the Earth, how much more will we not escape who turn away from him who warns from heaven, 26 whose voice shook the earth then, but now he has promised, saying, “Yet once more I will shake not only the earth, but also the heavens.” 27 This phrase, “Yet once more,” signifies the removing of those things that are shaken, as of things that have been made, that those things which are not shaken may remain. 28 Therefore, receiving a Kingdom that can’t be shaken, let us have grace, through which we serve God acceptably, with reverence and awe, 29 for our God is a consuming fire.
The idea of losing our birthright (verse 16-17) is similar to having our “names removed from the Book of Life” (Rev. 3:1-6), or being vomited out of Christ’s mouth (Rev. 3:16 & 21). We absolutely can be disqualified.
Here is Jesus’ rarely taught statement that says so much about who goes to heaven. The assembly in Sardis actually had a reputation for being alive. How many ‘churches’ in America can say that today? But most of the ‘Christians’ in Sardis were in danger of losing their salvation because Jesus hadn’t found their “works perfected.” But some had:
Yet only the “few names in Sardis that did not defile their garments” were truly walking with Christ, “for they are worthy.” Jesus only told those who overcame, who were therefore dressed in white, that their names would not be blotted out from the Book of Life.
Revelation 3
1 “And to the angel of the assembly in Sardis write: He who has the seven Spirits of God, and the seven stars says these things: “I know your works, that you have a reputation of being alive, but you are dead. 2 Wake up, and keep the things that remain, which you were about to throw away, for I have found no works of yours perfected before…God. 3 Remember therefore how you have received and heard. Keep it, and repent. If therefore you won’t watch, I will come as a thief, and you won’t know what hour I will come upon you. 4 Nevertheless you have a few names in Sardis that did not defile their garments. They will walk with me in white, for they are worthy. 5 He who overcomes will be arrayed in white garments, and I will in no way blot his name out of the book of life, and I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels.
~
Jesus continues His thought in the famous Laodicean lukewarm passage, that is talking about salvation: “I will vomit you out of my mouth.” We need to overcome as Jesus overcame (verse 21), abiding in Him (verse 20).
The white garment theme from verse 5 is repeated. “Vomit you out of my mouth” seems to be another way of saying “blot his name out of the book of life,” also in verse 5:
Blot his name out of the book of life (v. 5)
=
Vomit you out of my mouth (v. 16)
14 “To the angel of the assembly in Laodicea write: “The Amen, the Faithful and True Witness, the Head of God’s creation, says these things:
15 “I know your works, that you are neither cold nor hot. I wish you were cold or hot. 16 So, because you are lukewarm, and neither hot nor cold, I will vomit you out of my mouth. 17 Because you say, ‘I am rich, and have gotten riches, and have need of nothing;’ and don’t know that you are the wretched one, miserable, poor, blind, and naked; 18 I counsel you to buy from me gold refined by fire, that you may become rich; and white garments, that you may clothe yourself, and that the shame of your nakedness may not be revealed; and eye salve to anoint your eyes, that you may see. 19 As many as I love, I reprove and chasten. Be zealous therefore, and repent. 20 Behold, I stand at the door and knock. If anyone hears my voice and opens the door, then I will come in to him, and will dine with him, and he with me. 21 He who overcomes, I will give to him to sit down with me on my throne, as I also overcame, and sat down with my Father on his throne. 22 He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the assemblies.”
Francis Chan explains it this way:
Francis Chan on the luke-warm church
~
Revelation 2 — ‘Paradise’ doesn’t come easy. Real Christianity is being attached to the Vine from which the sap from the Holy Spirit then flows through us (John 15). We must abide in Christ to be able to ‘overcome’ — Jesus’ greatest commandment. Christianity isn’t only about doing the right things. It’s about staying in right relationship with our heavenly Father:
1 “To the angel of the assembly in Ephesus write: “He who holds the seven stars in his right hand, he who walks among the seven golden lampstands says these things:
2 “I know your works, and your toil and perseverance, and that you can’t tolerate evil men, and have tested those who call themselves apostles, and they are not, and found them false. 3 You have perseverance and have endured for my name’s sake, and have not grown weary. 4 But I have this against you, that you left your first love. 5 Remember therefore from where you have fallen, and repent and do the first works; or else I am coming to you swiftly, and will move your lampstand out of its place, unless you repent. 6 But this you have, that you hate the works of the Nicolaitans, which I also hate. 7 He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the assemblies. To him who overcomes I will give to eat of the tree of life, which is in the Paradise of my God.
~
Jesus then says that those who are “faithful to death” will receive “the crown of life,” and “he who overcomes won’t be harmed by the second death,” which we know is “the lake of fire“ (20:14).
8 “To the angel of the assembly in Smyrna write: “The first and the last, who was dead, and has come to life says these things: 9 “I know your works, oppression, and your poverty (but you are rich), and the blasphemy of those who say they are Jews, and they are not, but are a synagogue of Satan. 10 Don’t be afraid of the things which you are about to suffer. Behold, the devil is about to throw some of you into prison, that you may be tested; and you will have oppression for ten days. Be faithful to death, and I will give you the crown of life. 11 He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the assemblies. He who overcomes won’t be harmed by the second death [= “the lake of fire” – 20:14].
~
Revelation 20 — those whose names are not in the Book of Life, “according to their works,” are cast into hell:
11 I saw a great white throne, and him who sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away. There was found no place for them. 12 I saw the dead, the great and the small, standing before the throne, and they opened books. Another book was opened, which is the book of life. The dead were judged out of the things which were written in the books, according to their works. 13 The sea gave up the dead who were in it. Death and Hades gave up the dead who were in them. They were judged, each one according to his works. 14 Death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire. 15 If anyone was not found written in the book of life, he was cast into the lake of fire.
~
Jesus said profound, new-to-the-new-covenant truths about salvation in the Sermon on the Mount (Matthew 5-7). Especially sobering is what Jesus said about what happens to those who willfully look at a woman to lust in their heart — how we must overcome whatever the cost. I had a warning dream specifically about this, that Jesus is deadly serious about the consequences if we continue to willfully do this.
Matt. 5:1-30
Matt. 5:1 Seeing the multitudes, he went up onto the mountain. When he had sat down, his disciples came to him. 2 He opened his mouth and taught them, saying,
3 “Blessed are the poor in spirit,
For theirs is the Kingdom of Heaven.
4 Blessed are those who mourn,
For they shall be comforted.
5 Blessed are the gentle,
For they shall inherit the earth.
6 Blessed are those who hunger and thirst after righteousness,
For they shall be filled.
7 Blessed are the merciful,
For they shall obtain mercy.
8 Blessed are the pure in heart, [compare to 5:28]
For they shall see God.
9 Blessed are the peacemakers,
For they shall be called the children of God. [like Rom. 8:16-17]
10 Blessed are those who have been persecuted for righteousness’ sake,
For theirs is the Kingdom of Heaven.
11 “Blessed are you when people reproach you, persecute you, and say all kinds of evil against you falsely, for my sake. 12 Rejoice, and be exceedingly glad, for great is your reward in heaven. For that is how they persecuted the prophets who were before you. …20 For I tell you that unless your righteousness exceeds that of the scribes and Pharisees, there is no way you will enter into the Kingdom of Heaven.
21 “You have heard that it was said to the ancient ones, ‘You shall not murder;’ and ‘Whoever shall murder shall be in danger of the judgment.’ 22 But I tell you, that everyone who is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment; and whoever shall say to his brother, ‘Racaa!’ shall be in danger of the council; and whoever shall say, ‘You fool!’ shall be in danger of the fire of Gehenna.
23 “If therefore you are offering your gift at the altar, and there remember that your brother has anything against you, 24 leave your gift there before the altar, and go your way. First be reconciled to your brother, and then come and offer your gift. 25 Agree with your adversary quickly, while you are with him in the way; lest perhaps the prosecutor deliver you to the judge, and the judge deliver you to the officer, and you be cast into prison. 26 Most assuredly I tell you, you shall by no means get out of there, until you have paid the last penny.
27 “You have heard that it was said, ‘You shall not commit adultery;’ 28 but I tell you that everyone who gazes at a woman to lust after her has committed adultery with her already in his heart. 29 If your right eye causes you to stumble, pluck it out and throw it away from you. For it is more profitable for you that one of your members should perish, than for your whole body to be cast into Gehenna. 30 If your right hand causes you to stumble, cut it off, and throw it away from you: for it is profitable for you that one of your members should perish, and not your whole body be thrown into Gehenna.
* * *
“You have heard that it was said to those of old, ‘You shall not commit adultery.’ But I say to you that whoever looks at a woman to lust for her has already committed adultery with her in his heart. If your right eye causes you to sin, pluck it out and cast it from you; for it is more profitable for you that one of your members perish, than for your whole body to be cast into hell. And if your right hand causes you to sin, cut it off and cast it from you; for it is more profitable for you that one of your members perish, than for your whole body to be cast into hell. (Mt. 5:27-31 NKJV)
Matthew 6:9-15 (The Lord’s Prayer, including the verse after the Amen)
Pray like this:
‘Our Father in heaven, may your name be kept holy.
Let your Kingdom come. Let your will be done, as in heaven, so on earth.
Give us today our daily bread.
Forgive us our debts, as we also forgive our debtors.
Bring us not into temptation, but deliver us from the evil one.
For yours is the Kingdom, the power, and the glory forever. Amen.’
“For if you forgive men their trespasses, your heavenly Father will also forgive you. But if you don’t forgive men their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses.
Matt. 7:13-27
13 “Enter in by the narrow gate; for wide is the gate and broad is the way that leads to destruction, and many are those who enter in by it. 14 How narrow is the gate, and restricted is the way that leads to life! Few are those who find it.
15 “Beware of false prophets, who come to you in sheep’s clothing, but inwardly are ravening wolves. 16 By their fruits you will know them. Do you gather grapes from thorns, or figs from thistles? 17 Even so, every good tree produces good fruit; but the corrupt tree produces evil fruit. 18 A good tree can’t produce evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree produce good fruit. 19 Every tree that doesn’t grow good fruit is cut down, and thrown into the fire. 20 Therefore, by their fruits you will know them.
21 Not everyone who *says* to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter into the Kingdom of Heaven; but he who *does* the will of my Father who is in heaven. 22 Many will tell me in that day, ‘Lord, Lord, didn’t we prophesy in your name, in your name cast out demons, and in your name do many mighty works?’ 23 Then I will tell them, ‘I never knew you. Depart from me, you who work iniquity.’
24 “Everyone therefore who hears these words of mine, and does them, I will liken him to a wise man, who built his house on a rock. 25 The rain came down, the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat on that house; and it didn’t fall, for it was founded on the rock. 26 Everyone who hears these words of mine, and doesn’t do them will be like a foolish man, who built his house on the sand. 27 The rain came down, the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat on that house; and it fell—and great was its fall.”
~
Matthew 10
Being a real, going-to-heaven Christian is a radical commitment. We need to get in the saddle. Jesus said:
32 Everyone therefore who confesses me before men, him I will also confess before my Father who is in heaven. 33 But whoever denies me before men, him I will also deny before my Father who is in heaven.
34 “Don’t think that I came to send peace on the earth. I didn’t come to send peace, but a sword. 35 For I came to set a man at odds against his father, and a daughter against her mother, and a daughter-in-law against her mother-in-law. 36 A man’s foes will be those of his own household.
37 He who loves father or mother more than me is not worthy of me; and he who loves son or daughter more than me isn’t worthy of me. 38 He who doesn’t take his cross and follow after me, isn’t worthy of me. 39 He who seeks his life will lose it; and he who loses his life for my sake will find it.
Matthew 16
Here, is the “deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me” trio. Jesus then adds: “he will render to everyone according to his deeds.”
24 Then Jesus said to his disciples, “If anyone desires to come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me. 25 For whoever desires to save his life will lose it, and whoever will lose his life for my sake will find it. 26 For what will it profit a man, if he gains the whole world, and forfeits his life? Or what will a man give in exchange for his life? 27 For the Son of Man will come in the glory of his Father with his angels, and then he will render to everyone according to his deeds.
~
Matthew 24
Sin will be multiplied in the last days, so that the love of many will grow cold, but those who endure to the end, continuing to love no matter what will be saved:
4 Jesus answered them, “Be careful that no one leads you astray. 5 For many will come in my name, saying, ‘I am the Christ,’ and will lead many astray. 6 You will hear of wars and rumors of wars. See that you aren’t troubled, for all this must happen, but the end is not yet. 7 For nation will rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom; and there will be famines, plagues, and earthquakes in various places. 8 But all these things are the beginning of birth pains.
9 Then they will deliver you up to oppression, and will kill you. You will be hated by all of the nations for my name’s sake. 10 Then many will stumble, and will deliver up one another, and will hate one another. 11 Many false prophets will arise, and will lead many astray. 12 Because iniquity will be multiplied, the love of many will grow cold. 13 But he who endures to the end, the same will be saved.
~
Mark 8
This “take up his cross” text adds “whoever will be ashamed of me and of my words….”
34 He called the multitude to himself with his disciples, and said to them, “Whoever wants to come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me. 35 For whoever wants to save his life will lose it; and whoever will lose his life for my sake and the sake of the Good News will save it. 36 For what does it profit a man, to gain the whole world, and forfeit his life? 37 For what will a man give in exchange for his life? 38 For whoever will be ashamed of me and of my words in this adulterous and sinful generation, the Son of Man also will be ashamed of him, when he comes in the glory of his Father with the holy angels.”
~
Mark 13
13 You will be hated by all men for my name’s sake, but he who endures to the end, the same will be saved.
~
Luke 12
Jesus: “That servant who knew his lord’s will, and didn’t prepare nor do what he wanted, will be beaten with many stripes, but he who didn’t know, and did things worthy of stripes, will be beaten with few stripes.” – Luke 12:47-48
Luke 14
Very heavy! We’re supposed to “count the cost,” which is not letting anyone or anything stand in the way of us following Christ. “Whoever of you who doesn’t renounce all that he has, he can’t be my disciple.”
And the “salt becoming flat and tasteless” idea is similar to what Jesus says in John 15: how we must abide in Him in order to bear much fruit that will then remain — because as branches, we keep ourselves attached to the Vine, getting our sap from Him — that our joy will be full (15:11)! Real Christians are full of Life — which when meeting together then will make living, vibrant churches!
25 Now great multitudes were going with him. He turned and said to them, 26 “If anyone comes to me, and doesn’t disregard his own father, mother, wife, children, brothers, and sisters, yes, and his own life also, he can’t be my disciple. 27 Whoever doesn’t bear his own cross, and come after me, can’t be my disciple. 28 For which of you, desiring to build a tower, doesn’t first sit down and count the cost, to see if he has enough to complete it? 29 Or perhaps, when he has laid a foundation, and is not able to finish, everyone who sees begins to mock him, 30 saying, ‘This man began to build, and wasn’t able to finish.’ 31 Or what king, as he goes to encounter another king in war, will not sit down first and consider whether he is able with ten thousand to meet him who comes against him with twenty thousand? 32 Or else, while the other is yet a great way off, he sends an envoy, and asks for conditions of peace. 33 So therefore whoever of you who doesn’t renounce all that he has, he can’t be my disciple.
34 Salt is good, but if the salt becomes flat and tasteless, with what do you season it? 35 It is fit neither for the soil nor for the manure pile. It is thrown out [Jn. 15:6]. He who has ears to hear, let him hear.”
~
Moving to the Gospel of John. We all know John 3:16, right? But what does it really say in light of the rest of the chapter? Believe is not just a mental grasping of a concept. Believe is obeying Christ. It’s life in the Son.
16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish, but have eternal life. 17 For God didn’t send his Son into the world to judge the world, but that the world should be saved through him. 18 He who believes in him is not judged. He who doesn’t believe has been judged already, because he has not believed in the name of the one and only Son of God. 19 This is the judgment, that the light has come into the world, and men loved the darkness rather than the light; for their works were evil. 20 For everyone [born-again or not] who does evil hates the light, and doesn’t come to the light [hiding], lest his works would be exposed. 21 But he who does the truth comes to the light, that his works may be revealed, that they have been done in God.” [in God is similar to Paul’s in Christ Jesus phrase, explained below]
35 The Father loves the Son, and has given all things into his hand. 36 One who believes in the Son has eternal life, but one who disobeys [apeitheó] the Son won’t see life, but the wrath of God remains on him.” [compare to “obey” in 2 Thess. 1:8-9, Heb. 5:9 & Rom. 2:8 — and “does the will of my Father” in Mt. 7:21]
~
John 8
Just as Jesus abided in the Father, and always lived in the truth, so must we if we are to “truly be His disciples”:
28 Jesus therefore said to them, “When you have lifted up the Son of Man, then you will know that I am he, and I do nothing of myself, but as my Father taught me, I say these things. 29 He who sent me is with me. The Father hasn’t left me alone, for I always do the things that are pleasing to him.” 30 As he spoke these things, many believed in him.
31 Jesus therefore said to those Jews who had believed him, “If you remain in my word, then you are truly my disciples. 32 You will know the truth, and the truth will make you free.”
34 Jesus answered them, “Most certainly I tell you, everyone who commits sin is the bondservant of sin. 35 A BONDSERVANT doesn’t live in the house forever. A SON remains forever. 36 If therefore the Son makes you free, you will be free indeed.
Freed, legitimate sons must stay free from sin to remain in the Father’s house forever.
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John 10:27-29 is frequently quoted by eternal security proponents, often without verse 27, that explains who these safe sheep are: those who hear Jesus’ voice and follow Him. We are safe in Jesus’ hand as long as we hear and obey. No one can pluck us out when we truly abide in Christ, walking not according to the flesh but according to the Spirit, having clear consciences and “no condemnation” as a result (Rom. 8:1-17).
The entire text really says:
27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me. 28 I give eternal life to them. They will never perish, and no one will snatch them out of my hand. 29 My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all. No one is able to snatch them out of my Father’s hand.
David Pawson writes:
..the verse should be understood as an assurance that no one else can remove from the Father’s hand those who continue to listen to and follow (a synonym for obeying) his Son. (Once Saved Always Saved? — A Study in Perseverance and Inheritance – p. 174).
See also: The CHIEF PILLAR of Eternal Security (OSAS) Toppled – John 10:27-29! — “Only those who are hearing and following Christ right now are his sheep” — which further explains this “no one will snatch them out of my hand” scripture.
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John 15
It’s up to us to abide in Christ, and then Christ will automatically abide in us. As branches attached to the Vine, His sap will flow through us and we’ll bear much fruit — and we won’t be cast into the fire and burned. And then there is the fun part: that our joy may be full (verse 11)!
Jesus actually taught the opposite of what is commonly taught today in word and in music. One song that is currently being heavily rotated on “positive, encouragement” radio is “East to West.” One of the lyrics says: “I’m not holding on to you, but you’re holding on to me.” Jesus said just the opposite in John 15:
“Abide/Remain in me, and I in you.”
“He who remains in me, and I in him….”
“If a man doesn’t remain in me….”
John 15:1-14
1 “I am the true vine, and my Father is the farmer. 2 Every branch in me that doesn’t bear fruit, he takes away. Every branch that bears fruit, he prunes, that it may bear more fruit. 3 You are already pruned clean because of the word which I have spoken to you. 4 Remain in me, and I in you. As the branch can’t bear fruit by itself, unless it remains in the vine, so neither can you, unless you remain in me. 5 I am the vine. You are the branches. He who remains in me, and I in him, the same bears much fruit, for apart from me you can do nothing. 6 If a man doesn’t remain in me, he is thrown out as a branch, and is withered; and they gather them, throw them into the fire, and they are burned. If you remain in me, and my words remain in you, you will ask whatever you desire, and it will be done for you. 8 “In this is my Father glorified, that you bear much fruit; and so you will be my disciples. 9 Even as the Father has loved me, I also have loved you. Remain in my love. 10 If you keep my commandments, you will remain in my love; even as I have kept my Father’s commandments, and remain in his love. 11 I have spoken these things to you, that my joy may remain in you, and THAT YOUR JOY MAY BE MADE FULL.
12 “This is my commandment, that you love one another, even as I have loved you. 13 Greater love has no one than this, that someone lay down his life for his friends. 14 You are my friends, if you do whatever I command you.
Jesus’ phrase in John 8, “If you remain in my word…” is similar to what Jesus here says seven chapters later in John 15: “If you remain in me, and my words remain in you….”
Bondservants to sin cannot be a son who lives in the Father’s house forever:
31 Jesus therefore said to those Jews who had believed him, “If you remain in my word, then you are truly my disciples. 32 You will know the truth, and the truth will make you free.” 33 They answered him, “We are Abraham’s seed, and have never been in bondage to anyone. How do you say, ‘You will be made free?'”
34 Jesus answered them, “Most certainly I tell you, everyone who commits sin is the bondservant of sin. 35 A bondservant doesn’t live in the house forever. A son remains forever. 36 If therefore the Son makes you free, you will be free indeed.
We must remain in Jesus’ word to be His disciples. Freed, legitimate sons must stay free from sin to remain in the Father’s house forever.
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Galatians 5 and 6 is probably the clearest list of who goes to heaven and who doesn’t. Jesus’ abide in Me concept was written through Paul, the grace teacher, who actually taught this about “grace” in Titus 2:11-15:
11 For the grace of God has appeared, bringing salvation to all men, 12 instructing us to the intent that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we would live soberly, righteously, and godly in this present world; 13 looking for the blessed hope and appearing of the glory of our great God and Savior, Jesus Christ; 14 who gave himself for us, that he might redeem us from all iniquity, and purify for himself a people for his own possession, zealous for good works. 15 Say these things and exhort and reprove with all authority. Let no man despise you.
According to Paul in Galatians 5 and 6, who will “inherit the Kingdom of God” and “reap eternal life?” He says flat out: “Those who belong to Christ have crucified the flesh with its passions and lusts.” They live in the “fruit of the Spirit” list and don’t practice the things in his “works of the flesh…will not inherit the kingdom” list.
Gal. 5:13-6:10
13 For you, brothers [born-again believers “having begun in the Spirit” – 3:3], were called for freedom. Only don’t use your freedom for gain to the flesh, but through love be servants to one another. 14 For the whole law is fulfilled in one word, in this: “You shall love your neighbor as yourself.” 15 But if you bite and devour one another, be careful that you don’t consume one another. 16 But I say, walk by the Spirit, and you won’t fulfill the lust of the flesh. 17 For the flesh lusts against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh; and these are contrary to one other, that you may not do the things that you desire. 18 But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under the law. [compare to Rom. 8:4]
19 Now the works of the flesh are obvious, which are: adultery, sexual immorality, uncleanness, lustfulness, 20 idolatry, sorcery, hatred, strife, jealousies, outbursts of anger, rivalries, divisions, heresies, 21 envyings, murders, drunkenness, orgies, and things like these; of which I forewarn you [“brothers” v.13], even as I also forewarned you, that those who practice such things will not inherit the Kingdom of God.
22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, 23 gentleness, and self-control. Against such things there is no law. 24 Those who belong to Christ have crucified the flesh with its passions and lusts. 25 If we live by the Spirit, let’s also walk by the Spirit. …
6:7 Don’t be deceived. God is not mocked, for whatever a man sows, that will he also reap. 8 For he who sows to his own flesh will from the flesh reap corruption. But he who sows to the Spirit will from the Spirit reap eternal life.
9 Let us not be weary in doing good, for we will reap in due season, if we don’t give up. 10 So then, as we have opportunity, let’s do what is good toward all men, and especially toward those who are of the household of the faith.
Here is Paul, the grace teacher using the sandwich technique, starting out with the positive (chapter 2) before he then gives the warning in chapter 5. Salvation is a gift that we must abide in Christ to not forfeit.
Eph. 2:1-10
2 You were made alive when you were dead in transgressions and sins, 2 in which you once walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the powers of the air, the spirit who now works in the children of disobedience; 3 among whom we also all once lived in the lust of our flesh, doing the desires of the flesh and of the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, even as the rest. 4 But God, being rich in mercy, for his great love with which he loved us, 5 even when we were dead through our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved), 6 and raised us up with him, and made us to sit with him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus, 7 that in the ages to come he might show the exceeding riches of his grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus; 8 for by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, 9 not of works, that no one would boast. 10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared before that we would walk in them.
Eph. 5:1-6
1 Be therefore imitators of God, as beloved children. 2 Walk in love, even as Christ also loved you, and gave himself up for us, an offering and a sacrifice to God for a sweet-smelling fragrance. 3 But sexual immorality, and all uncleanness, or covetousness, let it not even be mentioned among you, as becomes saints; 4 nor filthiness, nor foolish talking, nor jesting, which are not appropriate; but rather giving of thanks. 5 Know this for sure, that no sexually immoral person, nor unclean person, nor covetous man, who is an idolater, has any inheritance in the Kingdom of Christ and God. 6 Let no one deceive you with empty words. For because of these things, the wrath of God comes on the children of disobedience.
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Romans 1 — Luther’s Eureka moment!
16 For I am not ashamed of the Good News of Christ, for it is the power of God for salvation for everyone who believes; for the Jew first, and also for the Greek. 17 For in it is revealed God’s righteousness from faith to faith. As it is written, “But the righteous shall live by faith.”
Martin Luther read “the just shall live by faith” in Romans 1, which was his famous Eureka moment. Because instead of letting Paul interpret what Paul meant, not just within these verses, but also in the chapters that follow, Luther jumped to the conclusion that Paul here meant “only believe,” which became his motto that he based on “the just shall live by faith” — his favorite verse. I can see how Luther could have come to this conclusion based upon Paul’s wording here, but he should have waited to let Paul explain what Paul meant. It’s not a good idea to jump to conclusions, especially in the first chapter, with fifteen more to follow.
The writer to Hebrews also states this exact phrase in Hebrews 10, which I quote above, where the context proves that “righteous” (translated “just” in the KJV) really does mean that we actually have to be righteous by not not continuing to “sin willfully.”
Paul continues:
“18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who suppress the truth in unrighteousness….
And then Paul already explains that sowing and reaping isn’t mainly about rewards in heaven, but whether we actually attain heaven:
Romans 2 — Obedience required
1 Therefore you are without excuse, O man, whoever you are who judge. For in that which you judge another, you condemn yourself. For you who judge practice the same things. 2 We know that the judgment of God is according to truth against those who practice such things. 3 Do you think this, O man who judges those who practice such things, and do the same, that you will escape the judgment of God? 4 Or do you despise the riches of his goodness, forbearance, and patience, not knowing that the goodness of God leads you to repentance? 5 But according to your hardness and unrepentant heart you are treasuring up for yourself wrath in the day of wrath, revelation, and of the righteous judgment of God; 6 who “will pay back to everyone according to their works:” 7 to those who by patience in well-doing seek for glory, honor, and incorruptibility, *eternal life*; 8 but to those who are self-seeking, and don’t *obey* the truth, but obey unrighteousness, will be *wrath* and indignation, 9 oppression and anguish, on every soul of man who works evil, to the Jew first, and also to the Greek. 10 But glory, honor, and peace go to every man who works good, to the Jew first, and also to the Greek. 11 For there is no partiality with God.
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Romans 6 — Shall we continue in sin?
Leading up to Romans 8, one of my favorite texts, is Paul’s “‘God forbid’ that we continue to sin” chapter — now that we have ‘grace’ to overcome! Verse 22 sums it up:
“being made free from sin,
and having become servants of God,
you have your fruit of sanctification (as in Gal. 5:22-24),
and the result of eternal life.”
1 What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound? 2 May it never be [God forbid (KJV)]! We who died to sin, how could we live in it any longer? 3 Or don’t you know that all we who were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into his death? 4 We were buried therefore with him through baptism to death, that just like Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, so we also might walk in newness of life. 5 For if we have become united with him in the likeness of his death, we will also be part of his resurrection; 6 knowing this, that our old man was crucified with him, that the body of sin might be done away with, so that we would no longer be in bondage to sin. 7 For he who has died has been freed from sin.
8 But if we died with Christ, we believe that we will also live with him; 9 knowing that Christ, being raised from the dead, dies no more. Death no more has dominion over him! 10 For the death that he died, he died to sin one time; but the life that he lives, he lives to God.11 Thus consider yourselves also to be dead to sin, but alive to God in Christ Jesus our Lord.
12 Therefore don’t let sin reign in your mortal body, that you should obey it in its lusts. 13 Neither present your members to sin as instruments of unrighteousness, but present yourselves to God, as alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness to God. 14 For sin will not have dominion over you. For you are not under law, but under grace.
15 What then? Shall we sin, because we are not under law, but under grace? May it never be [God forbid (KJV)]! 16 Don’t you know that to whom you present yourselves as servants to obedience, his servants you are whom you obey; whether of sin to death, or of obedience to righteousness?17 But thanks be to God, that, whereas you were bondservants of sin, you became obedient from the heart to that form of teaching whereunto you were delivered. 18 Being made free from sin, you became bondservants of righteousness. 19 I speak in human terms because of the weakness of your flesh, for as you presented your members as servants to uncleanness and to wickedness upon wickedness, even so now present your members as servants to righteousness for sanctification.
20 For when you were servants of sin, you were free in regard to righteousness. 21 What fruit then did you have at that time in the things of which you are now ashamed? For the end of those things is death. 22 But now, being made free from sin, and having become servants of God, you have your fruit of sanctification, and the result of eternal life. 23 For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.
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Romans 7 — Before being born-again and Spirit filled
Often misunderstood and taught as an excuse that Christians cannot overcome sin, in Roman 7, Paul was actually talking about his pre-born-again life — before he was empowered by the Holy Spirit to be able to overcome sin. One of my professors in seminary, Bruce A. Ware, taught Romans 7 correctly. Thank you, Bruce!
Leonard Ravenhill does an excellent job in this 1.5-minute video pointing out why Paul could overcome in Romans 8 when he couldn’t in Romans 7:
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Romans 8:1 is one of the most commonly mistaught scriptures, largely because of certain faulty modern Bible translations like Rupert Murdoch’s NIV. See:
“There is therefore now no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus.” The NIV stops there, but the KJV, NKJV and others keep Paul’s complete thought: “who don’t walk according to the flesh, but according to the Spirit.” (WEB)
And we know this is the correct interpretation to what Paul means to be in Christ Jesus because of what Paul also says in verse four (as well as verses 12-17) : “that the ordinance of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.”
Most pastors are teaching that the “no condemnation” from being “in Christ Jesus,” is automatic because Christ died for us and we accepted his free gift. But that’s not what Paul taught at all. It is so clear.
Those “who are in Christ Jesus” have “no condemnation” because they “don’t walk according to the flesh, but according to the Spirit”—by God’s grace, of course.
Most ‘Christians,’ today, rightfully feel condemnation because they are in one or more areas walking after the flesh and not putting to death the misdeads of the body by the Holy Spirit. Compare what Paul says in Galatians 5:
22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, 23 gentleness, and self-control. Against such things there is no law. 24 Those who belong to Christ have crucified the flesh with its passions and lusts. 25 If we live by the Spirit, let’s also walk by the Spirit.
Most pastors are confidence men who go to great lengths to convince the people that the condemnation they feel is really from the Devil, because born-again Christians can’t be under condemnation because of what Paul says in Romans 8:1a. They’re totally deceiving the public.
Most ‘Christians’ and pastors constantly live in condemnation. And instead of living totally clean and getting right with those they’ve hurt so they can be free from condemnation, they actually seek comfort from the positive-encouragement K-LOVE propaganda that tells listeners that we’re okay with God no matter what. The “never let go” songs are so popular, while we should really be listening to our-heart-to-God’s real worship music, which hardly gets played at all. Most ‘Christians’ can’t worship in Spirit and in truth because their hearts aren’t right.
“If therefore you are offering your gift at the altar, and there remember that your brother has anything against you,leave your gift there before the altar, and go your way. First be reconciled to your brother, and then come and offer your gift. (Mt. 5:23, 24)
In ‘church,’ today, it’s all about “I’m okay, you’re okay,” and this simply is not true. “God’s people” aren’t even repenting from supporting the United States’ immoral, reverse-Christian wars. Abortion is deemed so bad while it’s okay to kill hundreds of thousands of full grown humans who never did anything to us, and who are mostly now in Hell (abortion is despicable, but at least the babies go to heaven). We slaughtered them in the name of God and country. America gets what it deserves. We are now becoming a police state, and the end of America may soon be at hand, all because the ‘Christians’ are no longer salt and light. See: The Red Gate Prophecy — What If I Open It Just a Little Bit?
The fear of God has been removed from pastors’ vocabularies and from the songs that are played. The Bible has been gutted. Satan knew he couldn’t get away with adding words to the Bible, so instead, he took them out, largely through his servants, Wescott and Hort.
Paul continues to explain who goes to heaven in the middle of Romans 8, as well as in Romans 11, but pastors are leading the church astray by focusing instead on Romans 8:1a and the last part of the chapter which says nothing can separate us from the love of Christ; though, Paul was referring to those who are truly in Christ Jesus according to what he had previously said in chapter 8.
Americans are getting brainwashed/ mind-controlled. That is what is happening in most churches and on most ‘Christian’ radio and TV today. The deception in the last days is indeed great and almost universal! “Come out from them and be separate” is the remedy.
This is what Paul really says.
Romans 8:1-19 — Walking according to the Spirit we must overcome!
Rom. 8:1 There is therefore now *no condemnation* to those who are in Christ Jesus, who don’t walk according to the flesh, but according to the Spirit. 2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus made me free from the law of sin and of death [the old covenant law which Paul (Saul) was ‘captive under‘ in Romans 7, before being born-again, before having the Holy Spirit in him, giving him the grace to overcome]. 3 For what the law couldn’t do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God did, sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh and for sin, he condemned sin in the flesh; 4 that the ordinance of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit. [compare to Gal. 5:18]
5 For those who live according to the flesh set their minds on the things of the flesh, but those who live according to the Spirit, the things of the Spirit. 6 For the mind of the flesh is death, but the mind of the Spirit is life and peace….
12 So then, brothers, we are debtors, not to the flesh, to live after the flesh. 13 For if you live after the flesh, you must die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the deeds of the body, you will live. 14 For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, these are children of God. 15 For you didn’t receive the spirit of bondage again to fear, but you received the Spirit of adoption, by whom we cry, “Abba! Father!”
16 The Spirit himself testifies with our spirit that we are children of God; 17 and if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if indeed we suffer with him, that we may also be glorified with him. 18 For I consider that the sufferings of this present time are not worthy to be compared with the glory which will be revealed toward us. 19 For the creation waits with eager expectation for the children of God to be revealed.
Rom. 11:1, 20-23 — The balance
1 I ask then, Did God reject his people? May it never be! For I also am an Israelite, a descendant of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin. …
20 True; by their unbelief they were broken off, and you stand by your faith. Don’t be conceited, but fear; 21 for if God didn’t spare the natural branches [the Jews], neither will he spare you. 22 See then the goodness and severity of God. Toward those who fell, severity; but toward you, goodness, if you continue in his goodness; otherwise you also will be cut off. 23 They also, if they don’t continue in their unbelief, will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again.
The New Testament teaches that Jesus was an example on earth that we should follow in his steps. And having read the warning scriptures that describe what will happen to us if we fall away, “working out our salvation with fear and trembling” as the Holy Spirit enables us to makes total sense.
Philippians 2:5-16
In Matthew, Mark, and Luke, Jesus said: “If anyone desires to come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me.”
Just as Jesus did, so we…
5 Have this in your mind, which was also in Christ Jesus, 6 who, existing in the form of God, didn’t consider it robbery to be equal with God, 7 but emptied himself, taking the form of a servant, being made in the likeness of men. 8 And being found in human form, he humbled himself, becoming obedient to death, yes, the death of the cross. 9 Therefore God also highly exalted him, and gave to him the name which is above every name; 10 that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of those in heaven, those on earth, and those under the earth, 11 and that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.
12 So then, my beloved, even as you have always obeyed, not only in my presence, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling. 13 For it is God who works in you both to will and to work, for his good pleasure. 14 Do all things without murmurings and disputes, 15 that you may become blameless and harmless, children of God without blemish in the midst of a crooked and perverse generation, among whom you are seen as lights in the world, 16 holding up the word of life….
In 1 Timothy 6, Paul tells Timothy:
“Follow after righteousness, *GODLINESS*, faith, love, patience, and gentleness. FIGHT the good fight of faith. LAY HOLD OF the eternal life.”
And
“If anyone teaches A DIFFERENT DOCTRINE … [like OSAS – other than] the doctrine which is according to *GODLINESS*, he is conceited, knowing nothing, but obsessed with arguments, disputes, and word battles…”
1 Timothy 6:3-19
If anyone teaches a different doctrine, and doesn’t consent to sound words, the words of our Lord Jesus Christ, and to the doctrine which is according to godliness, he is conceited, knowing nothing, but obsessed with arguments, disputes, and word battles, from which come envy, strife, insulting, evil suspicions, constant friction of people of corrupt minds and destitute of the truth, who suppose that godliness is a means of gain. Withdraw yourself from such. But godliness with contentment is great gain. For we brought nothing into the world, and we certainly can’t carry anything out. But having food and clothing, we will be content with that.But those who are determined to be rich fall into a temptation and a snare and many foolish and harmful lusts, such as drown men in ruin and destruction. For the love of money is a root of all kinds of evil. Some have been led astray from the faith in their greed, and have pierced themselves through with many sorrows.
But you, man of God, flee these things, and follow after righteousness, godliness, faith, love, patience, and gentleness. Fight the good fight of faith. Lay hold of the eternal life to which you were called, and you confessed the good confession in the sight of many witnesses [being born-again is just the start]. I command you before God, who gives life to all things, and before Christ Jesus, who before Pontius Pilate testified the good confession, that you keep the commandment without spot, blameless, until the appearing of our Lord Jesus Christ; which in its own times he will show, who is the blessed and only Ruler, the King of kings, and Lord of lords; who alone has immortality, dwelling in unapproachable light; whom no man has seen, nor can see: to whom be honor and eternal power. Amen.
Charge those who are rich in this present world that they not be haughty, nor have their hope set on the uncertainty of riches, but on the living God, who richly provides us with everything to enjoy; that they do good, that they be rich in good works, that they be ready to distribute, willing to communicate; laying up in store for themselves a good foundation against the time to come, that they may lay hold of eternal life.
1 Thessalonians 4:1-8
Finally then, brothers, we beg and exhort you in the Lord Jesus, that as you received from us how you ought to walk and to please God, that you abound more and more. 2 For you know what instructions we gave you through the Lord Jesus. 3 For this is the will of God: your sanctification, that you abstain from sexual immorality, 4 that each one of you know how to control his own body in sanctification and honor, 5 not in the passion of lust, even as the Gentiles who don’t know God, 6 that no one should take advantage of and wrong a brother or sister in this matter; because the Lord is an avenger in all these things, as also we forewarned you and testified. 7 For God called us not for uncleanness, but in sanctification. 8 Therefore he who rejects this doesn’t reject man, but God, who has also given his Holy Spirit to you.
2 Thessalonians 1:3-12
We are bound to always give thanks to God for you, brothers, even as it is appropriate, because your faith grows exceedingly, and the love of each and every one of you towards one another abounds [Sounds like ‘ONE’ was happening!]; so that we ourselves boast about you in the assemblies of God for your patience and faith in all your persecutions and in the afflictions which you endure. This is an obvious sign of the righteous judgment of God, to the end that you may be counted worthy of the Kingdom of God, for which you also suffer. Since it is a righteous thing with God to repay affliction to those who afflict you, and to give relief to you who are afflicted with us, when the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven with his mighty angels in flaming fire, giving vengeance to those who don’t know God, and to those who don’t obey the Good News of our Lord Jesus, who will pay the penalty: eternal destruction from the face of the Lord and from the glory of his might, when he comes to be glorified in his saints, and to be admired among all those who have believed (because our testimony to you was believed) in that day. To this end we also pray always for you, that our God may count you worthy of your calling, and fulfill every desire of goodness and work of faith, with power; that the name of our Lord Jesus may be glorified in you, and you in him, according to the grace of our God and the Lord Jesus Christ.
1 Corinthians 15:1-2 — we must persevere:
Now I declare to you, brothers, the Good News which I preached to you, which also you received, in which you also stand, by which also you are saved, if you hold firmly the word which I preached to you –unless you believed in vain.
James on salvation
Luther actually hated the Book of James. He said: “Let us BANISH the epistle of James, for it is WORTHLESS”. And many pastors today also refuse to teach the many texts in the New Testament that clearly state we must be holy to be “approved” to enter heaven when we die.
James is no different. It just uses the word ‘works.’ But these aren’t works of the law. This is life in the Son — living according to the ‘law of freedom,’ ‘the royal law’: “You shall love your neighbor as yourself.”
According to James, if we are not loving our neighbors as ourselves we are deluding our own hearts and our religion is worthless.
“Don’t be deceived, my beloved brothers.”
James 1 & 2:
2 Count it all JOY, my brothers, when you fall into various temptations, 3 knowing that the TESTING of your FAITH produces ENDURANCE. 4 Let endurance have its perfect work, that you may be PERFECT and COMPLETE, lacking in nothing. …
12 Blessed is the man who endures temptation, for when he has been approved, he will receive the crown of life, which the Lord promised to those who love him. 13 Let no man say when he is tempted, “I am tempted by God,” for God can’t be tempted by evil, and he himself tempts no one. 14 But each one is tempted, when he is drawn away by his own lust, and enticed. 15 Then the lust, when it has conceived, bears sin; and the sin, when it is full grown, brings forth death. 16 Don’t be deceived, my beloved brothers. …
21 Therefore, putting away all filthiness and overflowing of wickedness, receive with humility the implanted word, which is able to save your souls. 22 But be doers of the word, and not only hearers, deluding your own selves. 23 For if anyone is a hearer of the word and not a doer, he is like a man looking at his natural face in a mirror; 24 for he sees himself, and goes away, and immediately forgets what kind of man he was. 25 But he who looks into the perfect law of freedom, and continues, not being a hearer who forgets, but a doer of the work, this man will be blessed in what he does.
26 If anyone among you thinks himself to be religious while he doesn’t bridle his tongue, but deceives his heart, this man’s religion is worthless. 27 Pure religion and undefiled before our God and Father is this: to visit the fatherless and widows in their affliction, and to keep oneself unstained by the world. …
8 However, if you fulfill the royal law, according to the Scripture, “You shall love your neighbor as yourself,” you do well. 9 But if you show partiality, you commit sin, being convicted by the law as transgressors. 10 For whoever keeps the whole law, and yet stumbles in one point, he has become guilty of all. 11 For he who said, “Do not commit adultery,” also said, “Do not commit murder.” Now if you do not commit adultery, but murder, you have become a transgressor of the law. 12 So speak, and so do, as men who are to be judged by a law of freedom. 13 For judgment is without mercy to him who has shown no mercy. Mercy triumphs over judgment.
14 What good is it, my brothers, if a man says he has faith, but has no works? Can faith save him? 15 And if a brother or sister is naked and in lack of daily food, 16 and one of you tells them, “Go in peace, be warmed and filled;” and yet you didn’t give them the things the body needs, what good is it? 17 Even so faith, if it has no works, is dead in itself.
18 Yes, a man will say, “You have faith, and I have works.” Show me your faith without works, and I by my works will show you my faith. 19 You believe that God is one. You do well. The demons also BELIEVE, and shudder. 20 But do you want to know, vain man, that faith apart from works is dead? 21 Wasn’t Abraham our father justified by works, in that he offered up Isaac his son on the altar? 22 You see that faith worked with his works, and by works faith was perfected; 23 and the Scripture was fulfilled which says, “Abraham BELIEVED God, and it was accounted to him as righteousness;” and he was called the friend of God. 24 You see then that by works, a man is justified, and not only by faith. 25 In the same way, wasn’t Rahab the prostitute also justified by works, in that she received the messengers, and sent them out another way? 26 For as the body apart from the spirit is dead, even so faith apart from works is dead.
1 John:
2:15 Don’t love the world, neither the things that are in the world. If anyone loves the world, the Father’s love isn’t in him. 16 For all that is in the world, the lust of the flesh, the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life, isn’t the Father’s, but is the world’s. 17 The world is passing away with its lusts, but he who does God’s will remains forever.
We must remain in Him to have boldness on the day of judgment:
2:28 Now, little children, remain in him, that when he appears, we may have boldness [‘confidence’ – NIV, ESV, NASB…], and not be ashamed before him at his coming.
4:16 We know and have believed the love which God has for us. God is love, and he who remains in love remains in God, and God remains in him. 17 In this[,] love has been made perfect among us, that we may have boldness [‘confidence’ – NIV, ESV, NASB…] in the day of judgment, because as he is, even so are we in this world.
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Since I’ve written Asbury Revival, 1970: “‘Dr. Kinlaw, I am a liar. Now what do I do?’ … Three days later, she came to me radiant, and she said, ‘Dr. Kinlaw, I’m free!’”, I’ll now include Jesus’ words about the consequences of lying.
Revelation 21 (NAS):
5 And He who sits on the throne said, “Behold, I am making all things new.” And He said, “Write, for these words are faithful and true.” 6 Then He said to me, “It is done. I am the Alpha and the Omega, the beginning and the end. I will give to the one who thirsts from the spring of the water of life without cost. 7 “He who overcomes will inherit these things, and I will be his God and he will be My son.
8 “But for the cowardly and unbelieving and abominable [to stink] and murderers [“everyone who is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment” (Mt. 5:21,22)] and immoral persons [πόρνος pornos – sexually immoral — “everyone who gazes at a woman to lust after her has committed adultery with her already in his heart“ (Mt. 5:27-30)] and sorcerers and idolaters and all liars, their part will be in the lake that burns with fire and brimstone, which is the second death.”
Revelation 22:
12 “Behold, I come quickly. My reward is with me, to repay to each man according to his work. 13 I am the Alpha and the Omega, the First and the Last, the Beginning and the End.
14 Blessed are those who do his commandments [the Greatest Two, now that we’re in the new covenant: “‘You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, and with all your soul, and with all your mind, and with all your strength.’ This is the first commandment. The second is like this, ‘You shall love your neighbor as yourself'” (Mk. 12:30-31) – editor], that they may have the right to the tree of life, and may enter in by the gates into the city. 15 Outside are the dogs, the sorcerers, the sexually immoral [“…everyone who gazes at a woman to lust after her has committed adultery with her already in his heart” Mt. 5:28 – editor], the murderers [“Whoever hates his brother is a murderer, and you know that no murderer has eternal life remaining in him” (1 John 3:15) – editor], the idolaters, and everyone who loves and practices falsehood [Rev. 21:8 – ‘all liars’ – editor].
16 I, Jesus, have sent my angel to testify these things to you for the assemblies.
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2/26/10
I’ve decided to include this study also,
because the two go hand in hand.
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.
Who are the Children of God?
Scriptures compiled
and highlighted by Jeff Fenske
* * *
This is a simple, though I think a very profound study — perhaps even sobering.
It’s simple because it’s simply straight-forward sections of scripture that aren’t surgically micro-edited to bias the results. So far, I’ve chosen not to even comment other than by how I highlighted the texts.
And I think it’s profound because these scriptures reveal a much different message than what is the mainstream teaching of our day. Imagine the profound result of what would happen if what the Bible so clearly says would instead be the mainstream teaching in America.
What would happen if the Bible would be simply accepted for what it simply says?
May we always greatly desire to line up with the word of God no matter what.
[Technical notes:
I most always use the World English Bible translation (WEB), because it’s intentionally not copyrighted (so we can use it freely, for free). It’s also usually very accurate, and it’s based on the reliable Textus Receptus text (as are the KJV and NKJV).
Here, the translators took the liberty to translate sons into the gender-free title, children. From a strict literal perspective it would seem that it would be best that a translation not do this unless it claims to be a paraphrase. In seminary, this was considered taboo. But I suppose it depends upon how gender-free the term sons was meant to be originally. Clearly, sons is meant to include women as much as it does men, so I’m going quote the WEB as is.
Also, I’m highlighting in black and in blue. All links on my sites are in red; though, in my writings, I also often emphasize the word ‘heart‘ in red.]
If you think of other scriptures that should be displayed here, please let me know.
God bless!
jeff : )
~
Jesus in Matthew 5
3 “Blessed are the poor in spirit, for theirs is the Kingdom of Heaven.
4 Blessed are those who mourn, for they shall be comforted.
5 Blessed are the gentle, for they shall inherit the earth.
6 Blessed are those who hunger and thirst after righteousness, for they shall be filled.
7 Blessed are the merciful, for they shall obtain mercy.
8 Blessed are the pure in heart, for they shall see God.
9 Blessed are the peacemakers, for they shall be called the children of God.
…
43 “You have heard that it was said, ‘You shall love your neighbor, and hate your enemy.’ 44 But I tell you, love your enemies, bless those who curse you, do good to those who hate you, and pray for those who mistreat you and persecute you, 45 that you may be children of your Father who is in heaven. For he makes his sun to rise on the evil and the good, and sends rain on the just and the unjust. 46 For if you love those who love you, what reward do you have? Don’t even the tax collectors do the same? 47 If you only greet your friends, what more do you do than others? Don’t even the tax collectors do the same? 48 Therefore you shall be perfect, just as your Father in heaven is perfect.
~
Jesus in John 8
Bondservants to sin cannot be a son who lives in the Father’s house forever:
31 Jesus therefore said to those Jews who had believed him, “If you remain in my word, then you are truly my disciples. 32 You will know the truth, and the truth will make you free.” 33 They answered him, “We are Abraham’s seed, and have never been in bondage to anyone. How do you say, ‘You will be made free?'”
34 Jesus answered them, “Most certainly I tell you, everyone who commits sin is the bondservant of sin. 35 A bondservant doesn’t live in the house forever. A son remains forever. 36 If therefore the Son makes you free, you will be free indeed.
We must remain in Jesus’ word to be His disciple. Freed, legitimate sons must stay free from sin to remain in the Father’s house forever!
~
Jesus in John 10
1 “Most certainly, I tell you, one who doesn’t enter by the door into the sheep fold, but climbs up some other way, the same is a thief and a robber. 2 But one who enters in by the door is the shepherd of the sheep. 3 The gatekeeper opens the gate for him, and the sheep listen to his voice. He calls his own sheep by name, and leads them out. 4 Whenever he brings out his own sheep, he goes before them, and the sheep follow him, for they know his voice. 5 They will by no means follow a stranger, but will flee from him; for they don’t know the voice of strangers.” 6 Jesus spoke this parable to them, but they didn’t understand what he was telling them.
7 Jesus therefore said to them again, “Most certainly, I tell you, I am the sheep’s door. 8 All who came before me are thieves and robbers, but the sheep didn’t listen to them. 9 I am the door. If anyone enters in by me, he will be saved, and will go in and go out, and will find pasture. 10 The thief only comes to steal, kill, and destroy. I came that they may have life, and may have it abundantly.
11 I am the good shepherd. The good shepherd lays down his life for the sheep. 12 He who is a hired hand, and not a shepherd, who doesn’t own the sheep, sees the wolf coming, leaves the sheep, and flees. The wolf snatches the sheep, and scatters them. 13 The hired hand flees because he is a hired hand, and doesn’t care for the sheep. 14 I am the good shepherd. I know my own, and I’m known by my own; 15 even as the Father knows me, and I know the Father. I lay down my life for the sheep. 16 I have other sheep, which are not of this fold. I must bring them also, and they will hear my voice. They will become one flock with one shepherd. …
27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me. 28 I give eternal life to them. They will never perish, and no one will snatch them out of my hand. 29 My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all. No one is able to snatch them out of my Father’s hand.
~
Romans 8
1 There is therefore now no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus, who don’t walk according to the flesh, but according to the Spirit. 2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus made me free from the law of sin and of death. 3 For what the law couldn’t do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God did, sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh and for sin, he condemned sin in the flesh; that the ordinance of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit. …
13 For if you live after the flesh, you must die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the deeds of the body, you will live. 14 For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, these are children of God. 15 For you didn’t receive the spirit of bondage again to fear, but you received the Spirit of adoption, by whom we cry, “Abba! Father!” 16 The Spirit himself testifies with our spirit that we are children of God; 17 and if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint heirs with Christ; if indeed we suffer with him, that we may also be glorified with him.
18 For I consider that the sufferings of this present time are not worthy to be compared with the glory which will be revealed toward us. 19 For the creation waits with eager expectation for the children of God to be revealed.
~
2 Corinthians 6:14-18
Don’t be unequally yoked with unbelievers, for what fellowship have righteousness and iniquity? Or what fellowship has light with darkness? 15 What agreement has Christ with Belial? Or what portion has a believer with an unbeliever?
What agreement has a temple of God with idols? For you are a temple of the living God. Even as God said, “I will dwell in them, and walk in them; and I will be their God, and they will be my people.”
Therefore, “‘Come out from among them, and be separate,’ says the Lord. ‘Touch no unclean thing. I will receive you.
I will be to you a Father. You will be to me sons and daughters,’ says the Lord Almighty.”
~
Gal. 5
22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faith, 23 gentleness, and self-control. Against such things there is no law. 24 Those who belong to Christ [They that are Christ’s – KJV] have crucified the flesh with its passions and lusts.
~
Philippians 2
12 So then, my beloved, even as you have always obeyed, not only in my presence, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling. 13 For it is God who works in you both to will and to work, for his good pleasure.
14 Do all things without murmurings and disputes, 15 that you may become blameless and harmless, children of God without blemish in the midst of a crooked and perverse generation, among whom you are seen as lights in the world, 16 holding up the word of life; that I may have something to boast in the day of Christ, that I didn’t run in vain nor labor in vain.
~
Hebrews 12: 1-17
1 Therefore let us also, seeing we are surrounded by so great a cloud of witnesses, lay aside every weight and the sin which so easily entangles us, and let us run with patience the race that is set before us, 2 looking to Jesus, the author and perfecter of faith, who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising its shame, and has sat down at the right hand of the throne of God.
3 For consider him who has endured such contradiction of sinners against himself, that you don’t grow weary, fainting in your souls.
4 You have not yet resisted to blood, striving against sin; 5 and you have forgotten the exhortation which reasons with you as with children, “My son, don’t take lightly the chastening of the Lord, nor faint when you are reproved by him;
6 For whom the Lord loves, he chastens, and scourges every son whom he receives.”
7 It is for discipline that you endure. God deals with you as with children, for what son is there whom his father doesn’t discipline? 8 But if you are without discipline, of which all have been made partakers, then are you illegitimate, and not children. 9 Furthermore, we had the fathers of our flesh to chasten us, and we paid them respect. Shall we not much rather be in subjection to the Father of spirits, and live? 10 For they indeed, for a few days, punished us as seemed good to them; but he for our profit, that we may be partakers of his holiness. 11 All chastening seems for the present to be not joyous but grievous; yet afterward it yields the peaceful fruit of righteousness to those who have been exercised thereby.
12 Therefore, lift up the hands that hang down and the feeble knees, 13 and make straight paths for your feet, so that which is lame may not be dislocated, but rather be healed.
14 Follow after peace with all men, and the sanctification without which no man will see the Lord, 15 looking carefully lest there be any man who falls short of the grace of God; lest any root of bitterness springing up trouble you, and many be defiled by it; 16 lest there be any sexually immoral person, or profane person, like Esau, who sold his birthright for one meal. 17 For you know that even when he afterward desired to inherit the blessing, he was rejected, for he found no place for a change of mind though he sought it diligently with tears.
~
1 John 3
1 Behold, how great a love the Father has bestowed on us, that we should be called children of God! For this cause the world doesn’t know us, because it didn’t know him. 2 Beloved, now we are children of God, and it is not yet revealed what we will be. But we know that, when he is revealed, we will be like him; for we will see him just as he is. 3 Everyone who has this hope set on him purifies himself, even as he is pure.
4 Everyone who sins also commits lawlessness. Sin is lawlessness. 5 You know that he was revealed to take away our sins, and in him is no sin. 6 Whoever remains in him doesn’t sin. Whoever sins hasn’t seen him, neither knows him. 7 Little children, let no one lead you astray. He who does righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous. 8 He who sins is of the devil, for the devil has been sinning from the beginning. To this end the Son of God was revealed, that he might destroy the works of the devil. 9 Whoever is born of God doesn’t commit sin, because his seed remains in him; and he can’t sin, because he is born of God. 10 In this the children of God are revealed, and the children of the devil. Whoever doesn’t do righteousness is not of God, neither is he who doesn’t love his brother.
11 For this is the message which you heard from the beginning, that we should love one another; 12 unlike Cain, who was of the evil one, and killed his brother. Why did he kill him? Because his works were evil, and his brother’s righteous.
13 Don’t be surprised, my brothers, if the world hates you. 14 We know that we have passed out of death into life, because we love the brothers. He who doesn’t love his brother remains in death. 15 Whoever hates his brother is a murderer, and you know that no murderer has eternal life remaining in him. 16 By this we know love, because he laid down his life for us. And we ought to lay down our lives for the brothers. 17 But whoever has the world’s goods, and sees his brother in need, and closes his heart of compassion against him, how does the love of God remain in him?
Paul prayed in 1 Thessalonians 9-11:
“This I pray,
that your love may abound yet more and more
in knowledge and all discernment;
so that you may approve the things that are excellent;
that you may be sincere and without offense to the day of Christ;
being filled with the fruits of righteousness,
which are through Jesus Christ,
to the glory and praise of God.”
* * *
Related:
David Pawson: How then can we be sure…?
“How can we be sure? ..through the Holy Spirit. When we are led by the Spirit and are walking in the Spirit, we shall enjoy the continuous witness of the Spirit, that intuitive certainty that the Lord is with us. But the New Testament also contains checks even on this, so that we can be quite sure that our intuition is not being misled. These include a clear conscience, a love for our brethren in Christ and a discontinuing of habitual sins (1 John contains a comprehensive list of such ‘proofs’).” – David Pawson, Once Saved Always Saved?: A Study in Perseverance and Inheritance (p. 139; p. 134 Kindle)
The bottom line:
No Condemnation NOW so No Condemnation when we meet Jesus face to FACE — Hearts pure, smiling so big!!! FREEeeeeeeee———–DOM!!!!!!!
Baptist pastor Howard Pittman’s actual death experience in 1979:
How Many Will Be in Heaven? How Many Find the WAY? Only 1 in 40 — 2.5%!?!!
Bob Jones was also told this after actually dying — includes the coming great revival!:
(vid) Bob Jones experience in heaven! – Only 2% entered who WALKED IN LOVE • 1 billion will awaken when our consciences are TOTALLY CLEAN!
The meaning of “Grace” (χαρις) in the Bible: It’s not what you think?
2014 Pornography Survey of ‘Christian’ Men: MAJORITY not only lusting, but into porn!!
O sirs, do not deceive your own souls; holiness is of absolute necessity; without it you shall never see the Lord. (2 Thes i. 8-10)
It is not absolutely necessary that you should be great or rich in the world; but it is absolutely necessary that you should be holy; it is not absolutely necessary that you should enjoy health, strength, friends, liberty, life; but it is absolutely necessary that you should be holy.
A man may see the Lord without worldly prosperity, but he can never see the Lord except he be holy. A man may [go] to heaven, to happiness, without honour or worldly glory, but he can never [go] to heaven, to happiness, without holiness.
Without holiness here, no heaven hereafter. ‘And there shall in no wise enter into it anything that defileth.’ (Rev. xxi. 27)
God will at last shut the gates of glory against every person that is without heart-purity.
Someday there may be a part III:
Keith Green’s song is directly related:
Keith Green – (talk about) The Sheep And The Goats (live)
Keith Green – The Sheep And The Goats (live)
Full concert:
•
Joe Schimmel (known for They Sold Their Souls for Rock N Roll) demolishes OSAS:
•
“Get rid of this bunkum about the ‘carnal Christian’. Forget it! If
you’re carnal, you’re not saved.” – Leonard Ravenhill.
“We Must Be Holy” by J. C. Ryle (1816-1900)
Martin Luther’s Subordinate Bible Books: Hebrews, James, Jude & Revelation
The Protestant Reformers Were Frauds: An Anabaptist speaks out
(video) Dan Corner Interview: The Believer’s Conditional Security
The Believer’s Conditional Security : Eternal Security Refuted, by Dan Corner (801 page end-of-story book, but doesn’t cover who then does go to heaven, biblically)
4-minute video
Francis Chan – Balance Beam
[ video ] Francis Chan’s ‘Last Sermon’ — There will be no cowards in heaven
How CLEAN do our Hearts have to be from the Hebrews-12 root of bitterness that defiles many? Where is the place of SAFETY — RESTING, KNOWING for SURE we’re going to heaven? Selah …
THE PATRISTIC INTERPRETATION of ROMANS 7:14-25 — The early church did not understand Rom 7:14-25 to teach the necessity of sin in believers
BE YE THEREFORE PERFECT (Matthew 5:48): Thirty-eight Sermonettes on SIN, SALVATION and RIGHTEOUSNESS
Dennis Cuddy: The delusion that most ‘Christians’ are going to heaven
“Grace”: To Give You Life to Overcome—Not a License to Sin
Robert Shank: Erroneous “2 natures of the believer” doctrine — Romans 7 is before Paul’s ‘life in the Son’
[ Book ] Life in the Son: A Study of the Doctrine of Perseverance, by Robert Shank
“Cleanse Ourselves?” by Gary Gray — We both cleanse ourselves and Jesus Christ makes us clean. Do your part, without which God will not do His. | We must accept ALL of the Apostle’s Doctrine, not just selected verses. No Apostle ever wrote a verse to anyone. They wrote entire letters.
[ Reality-check video ] Learn Why Jesus BANNED Heaven From Famous Uganda Pastor!
[ audio ] Dan Corner: The parable of the sower — “Bringing forth fruit is a salvation issue”
Father of Calvinism, Augustine’s Prayer To Mary For His Salvation
John Calvin Had Servetus Burned at the Stake for Having Doctrinal Differences — His Ashes Cry Out!
(video) Dan Corner: Prodigal Son — “My son was dead, and is alive again! He was lost, and is found!”
Francis Chan: Are Your Beliefs Biblical? What would you believe if you had only read the Bible on your own?
To my homosexual friends: May we all be ‘ONE’ in Christ! What is the ‘fury fire’ that Piper Perabo talks about? How can it be tamed? What is God’s true perspective in “The Homosexuals Will Arise” prophecy and what does Romans 1 really say? — Romans 1 is actually another who-doesn’t-go-to-heaven list in which many straight ‘Christians’ also currently fit
Gandhi: Widespread Belief Doesn’t Make an Error True
“Truth … lies in the depth where few are willing to search for it.”
[FreedomQuote] “It’s hard to accept the truth when the lies were exactly what you wanted to hear.”
[ video ] Willful Ignorance: Actively Resisting the Truth and Truth-tellers
From Willful Ignorance through Cognitive Dissonance to “Could I Be Wrong?”
WordPower: BEWARE, in the LAST DAYS People Will Be WILLINGLY IGNORANT
[FreedomQuote] ”I Would Rather Know The Ugly Truth Than A Beautiful Lie”
(video) Asbury Revival, 1970: RECONCILIATION the KEY! — “‘Dr. Kinlaw, I am a liar. Now what do I do?’ … Three days later, she came to me radiant, and she said, ‘I just hit my 34th person and I’m free!’” Many need to get right with people they’ve hurt to be free! Then God can move!
[ video – The MOST BEAUTIFUL SONG! ] Benny Hester: “When God Ran”
Phillip M. Evans
Greetings Jeff and all, in my new book “Eternal Security Proved!” I address many of the Scripture passages presented in this post. I also refute many Arminian arguments used against the truth of unconditional eternal security.
The book should be available by the end of June this year, but 4 chapters totaling 88 pages can be freely read online now at http://www.EternalSecurityProved.com
Phil
tobefree
Dear Phil,
I looked through the chapters you have posted at your site. You say above that you address many of the scripture passages in my post, but I don’t see even one of the *key* scriptures that I cite addressed [I don’t consider Mt. 7 to be a key text unless what Jesus said earlier in this same Sermon on the Mount is included—which I did above, highlighting the key who-goes-to-heaven points from Mt. 5].
If I’m missing something, please let me know. And I realize that I’m only able to look at the 88 pages you’ve so far posted.
Your technique reminds me of the main textbook we were assigned to read regarding salvation in systematic theology in seminary. The author claimed to be presenting both sides of the argument, but didn’t mention many of the key we-must-be-right-with-man-and-God-to-be-saved texts, such as Heb. 10:26-39. I see that you cite Heb. 10:9-11 without mentioning verses 26-39 from the same chapter. Do you cite them elsewhere? How about Rev. 3:1-5, and the others?
This is very serious business:
“My brethren, let not many of you become teachers, knowing that we shall receive a STRICTER JUDGMENT” (James 3:1).
And Jesus said: “But whoever causes one of these little ones who believe in Me to stumble, it would be better for him if a millstone were hung around his neck, and he were thrown into the sea” (Mark 9:42).
We need to be absolutely sure we are presenting the truth that “holy men of God spoke as they were moved by the Holy Spirit”—especially when it comes to this crucial topic that hardly anyone adequately studies.
I was very blessed to have a teacher in the early ’80s [Thank you, Jerry!!!] who warned me of the pitfalls of systematic theology technique, and introduced me to the concept of biblical theology. Systematic theology is mostly concerned with accumulating the texts that address a given subject, and then sorting out what is truth based upon what these texts say. But too often, key texts go ignored and passages are taken out of context.
Biblical theology takes into consideration the writer’s style and his development of a concept throughout his writings. Both should be used together.
In studying “who goes to heaven,” I did two things that I don’t see done enough—and hopefully this will change.
I carefully read through the entire New Testament twice (many years apart) and marked every scripture that had anything to do with who goes to heaven. Other methods like word studies and/or considering texts mentioned by others aren’t thorough enough. Not all of the key texts will come up through word studies, and leaning on the database that others have assembled is dependent upon them doing the job correctly to begin with.
The other thing I did was to consider the writer’s style. For example, I talk about Paul’s use of the sandwich technique, in which he begins with the positive, before getting heavy further into the letter with the specific truths, and then he ends with the more optimistic, endearing remarks.
For example, I state above what Paul says in Ephesians 2: how the Ephesians, being sin overcomers were seated with Christ in the heavenly realms, but then in chapter 5 he gets into the meat of the situation, specifically who has an inheritance and who does not—how overcoming is mandatory. He then ends the final chapter by talking about peace to the brethren, and grace; though, he does qualify who the grace is towards: “who LOVE our Lord Jesus Christ IN SINCERITY.”
The proponents of the once-saved-always-saved concept seem to like to emphasize the soft bread in the sandwich (the easiest to chew), and ignore the meat (where Paul gets into the specific and more complex, harder-to-swallow details).
There is another factor that I haven’t discussed much on this site yet, but plan to. James talks about how ‘Christians’ curse people in chapter three of his letter. He asks: “how can this be?” But it is, especially today in the United States under this license-to-sin theology. This is what I’ve noticed.
People who are born-again, including many born-again pastors, pray all kinds of things for especially those in their flock—or who they think threaten their flock’s adherence to their teaching, and even themselves. Too many aren’t always careful that what they wish on others in the name of prayer. ‘Prayers’ that God doesn’t condone are curses.
James 3:15 says the source of the ungodly wisdom that drives unbiblical prayers/’curses’ is demonic. Demon-driven and demon-executed prayers are curses, even if they come from a born-again “Christian.”
It is clear to me that once-saved-always-saved is a doctrine of demons which has and is deceiving many millions of God’s people—sending many to hell. And doctrines like this can be reinforced by simple prayers that are actually James-3 curses.
For example, the love-of-money thing—which Jesus said is a big deal! A pastor may preach that everyone in the congregation is required by God to give 10% of their income, which is clearly unbiblical for new covenant, supposed-to-be-Holy-Spirit-led believers http://onecanhappen.com/2007/11/26/the-day-that-tithing-ended-to-now-be-led-by-the-holy-spirit, and then he prays that the people will believe this false teaching. But God won’t honor this prayer to move a person to do something contrary to his will. But demons will—and the person has been James-3 cursed—often by his own ‘pastor,’ and/or others on the payroll.
But many Christians don’t understand that THE FEELING THEY HAVE TO TITHE never did come from the Holy Spirit. For many pastors teach another false doctrine: that evil spirits can’t affect Christians directly—which they reinforce with more James-3 prayers/curses—so the people feel compelled to unquestionably follow. But it’s more like being driven—because demons drive; the Holy Spirit entreats. it’s not a gentle thing. And many ‘Christians’ have not become gentle people.
[No wonder so many ‘Christians’ have become strongly preemptive war—the opposite of what Christ taught: “Blessed are the peacemakers.” This is more demon-driven stuff.]
And few pastors really teach the people how to be led by the Holy Spirit, because they’re teaching the old covenant law of tithing instead, regarding this exceedingly important, personal issue of how we decide what to do with our money.
But Paul said in Romans 8 that “those who are led by the Spirit are the sons of God,” and that “there is NO CONDEMNATION to those who are IN CHRIST JESUS, who do not walk according to the flesh, but ACCORDING TO THE SPIRIT.”
But the church has changed “in Christ Jesus” to mean merely those who are truly born-again. Because through the years, someone [perhaps even Luther] stopped reading the rest of Romans 8:1, that says being “in Christ Jesus” are those “who do not walk according to the flesh, but according to the Spirit.” And phrases that Paul teaches later in this same chapter are also ignored, like “those who are led by the Spirit are the sons of God,” and that the requirement for being God’s children/heirs is that “we suffer with Him.”
And now we have once-saved-always-saved, or eternal security, or “it’s hard to lose one’s salvation;” though, the Bible doesn’t teach we’re secure unless we’re truly “in Christ”—as Robert Shank so aptly teaches (and took tons of flack for) in “Life in the Son—A Study of the Doctrine of Perseverance” http://www.amazon.com/Life-Son-Robert-Shank/dp/1556610912/ref=pd_bbs_sr_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1209482347&sr=8-1.
I don’t know how much of a role that the church teaching the law of tithing has played in the adoption of the OSAS teaching by evangelicals in the United States today. But I think it’s a huge factor. And I’m convinced that James-3 curses reinforce the acceptance of these doctrines of demons. And James-3 curses are sent to fight off those who would say otherwise.
[I can tell this from lots of personal experience.]
And now the church is mostly a mess. And America is a mess. And the world can see the ‘church’ in America is a mess.
So what is the solution? Sound doctrine, carefully praying prayers (not curses), a lot of praying in the Spirit, and forgiving EVERYONE from the HEART, so we can be ONE with each other, in Christ—Jesus heart-cry for us in John 17: “Let Us Be ONE” http://onecanhappen.com/let-us-be-one—which is what this site is all about.
Freedom!!!
Jeff Fenske : )
David Anders
Thank you Jeff, for this excellent catalogue of Scripture verses.
For many years, I completely ignored such verses or “reinterpreted” them according to my Protestant/Lutheran/Presbyterian bias. What really began to wake me up to the truth of Scripture was the witness of the early church and some modern biblical scholarship.
When I began looking at the Church Fathers – the Apostolic Fathers, the Apologists (Justin, Irenaeus), Athanasius, and especially Augustine – I realized that the people who had known the apostles (like Ignatius of Antioch and Polycarp), those taught by them, and those who were only a few generations removed from them had no concept of “justification by faith alone,” or of “OSAD.” The church fathers did insist on the need for grace, but they never saw grace as something that would co-exist with sin. Grace, for them, brings forgiveness and holiness and enables the Christian to merit (yes, I used the “m” word), eternal life. [By the way, ‘merit’ simply means -something for which you are rewarded. Nothing is clearer in Scripture than that we will be rewarded or punished according to our works. See Romans 2]
I also found it very useful to dig into the Scholarship of the “New Perspectives on Paul” school of biblical study. Writers like E.P. Sanders, Krister Stendhal, James Dunn, and N.T. Wright. These are Protestant scholars who have shown pretty convincingly that the Lutheran and Protestant traditions have misinterpreted Pauline teaching on grace and justification.
Thanks for your good work.
-David
Sandy
Jeff,
Very good response to Phil. I went to the website Phil directed the readers and I saw no key verses addressed. It was the same old party line. This doctrine of OSAS is leading so many to Hell. It puts the Christian off his spiritual guard. Why worry about getting drunk….it’s forgiven! If I steal this, God has forgiven me already! Etc. Etc. Etc.
I know of someone hooked on drugs and prostituting her body, but she claims Jesus loves her and she will still enter through the pearly gates! She got a does of the OSAS doctrine taught in a Baptist church. This doctrine is so crazy. It defies logic as well as the word of God and damns many souls.
Blessings,
Sandy
Ray S
Actually, all mankind will be saved through he grace of God. Every single human will one day praise God and be reconciled.
Jeff Fenske
The false doctrine of universal reconciliation is part of Steve Hill’s “Spiritual Avalanche” vision:
Spiritual Avalanche – Steve Hill: The 7 Great Lies in the Church Today — Overemphasis of Prosperity • Exaggerated View of Grace (grace-changers nullify all divine warnings) • Antinomianism = against rules, so “anything goes” (but “Jesus didn’t set us free to sin; He set us free from sin”) • Gazing Upon Man, not God • Challenging the Authority of the Word (God didn’t really mean what He said) • Rejecting Hell • Universal Reconciliation
Charles N
I came across this URL in Google searching for Luther’s statement about sinning boldly. And I am just amazed. The notion of salvation by faith alone, the rejection of the concept of merit and good works remains a steadfast basis for so many of my Protestant friends, desptie the distortion of holy writ to get there, and despite the witness of the early fathers. I did find the comment by Ray S for Jan 12, 09 to arrest me. It was the opinion of Francis de Sales, a doctor of RCC, that few will be lost, nor has his communion ever identified anyone who is in hell. Augustine put it this way: Ordinarily, he who prays is saved. I like to think with Ray S, that God can save after death. Nonetheless, this is an intruiging site.
Jeff Fenske
Dear Charles,
Thanks for posting. In this 1/18 rewrite to your comment, I think I may just now have a clear answer to your idea that perhaps “God can save after death.”
First, Augustine: I also find the “church fathers” interesting, but mainly those who are called the “early church fathers,” those who wrote soon after the Biblical period and before Constantine nationalized the church in the fourth century, after which seemed to be the dark ages for the church.
I haven’t read much Augustine, because I’ve seen a lot of disinfo coming from him that apparently is a basis for some of the doctrines of demons that are commonly taught and destroying the church, today.
For one thing, Augustine was a cessationist, whereas many of the early church fathers wrote a lot about the gifts of the Spirit. When one minimizes the role of the Holy Spirit, it’s easy to fall into false doctrine, because the Holy Spirit was in part given to us ~”to lead us into all truth” (John 16).
As far as most people being saved, this totally contradicts what Jesus said in Mt. 7 and many of the texts I quote in this article.
Also, besides trying to be sensitive to the Holy Spirit’s leading, myself, I try to learn from others’ experiences and leadings, for God doesn’t tell everything to just one person.
One such example is Howard Pittman’s experience, in which he, a pastor, actually died 30 years ago. And at the gates of heaven, he saw 50 people enter while he was told that 1,950 people entered hell during this same period, which amounts to only about 2 1/2% of the people going to heaven. And that was in 1979, before the internet, while decency on TV was more common, and before “once saved, always saved” and “it’s hard to lose your salvation” had flooded the airwaves as much as it has today. ‘Christian’ music was far more Christian in content and much more Holy Spirit empowered. ‘Christian’ music, today, is mostly a farse.
This is what Howard Pittman wrote about his experience in his book, “Placebo,” part of which is online here.
Based upon what the Bible really says about who goes to heaven, 2 1/2% is not surprising to me at all. Easy believism has done a work on America, and America has spread crossless Christianity around the world—’crossless’ in that we don’t have to do what Jesus said, to take up our cross and follow Him, because we’re taught that He did it all, so we don’t have to do anything. But the only guarantee to born-again Christians to not have their names removed from the Book of Life is to those who overcome (Rev. 3:1-6).
The main reason I’m delighted to respond to your comment is to try to address this idea that it may be possible to be saved after one dies in an unsaved, “not right enough with God and man to go to heaven” state. I attempted to answer yesterday, but today I think it dawned on me what’s going on with the idea of purgatory.
Even just a few years ago, I would have totally dismissed the purgatory idea, and I still mostly do, but there may be one aspect of it that is true.
Again, Hebrews 10:26 says: “For if we sin willfully after we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remains no more a sacrifice for sins….” What if a person is born-again and is unknowingly sinning sins that lead to death, sins that would ordinarily disqualify one from entering heaven, like those in the Gal-5, works of the flesh list, or unknowingly doing something that the Bible clearly forbids? Please consider this:
I am honored to personally know an amazing pastor, who in almost every way, definitely has impeccable, Biblically ‘above reproach’ (one of the qualifications for an overseer/elder in 1 Tim. 3 & Titus 1) character. There are very few pastors whom I would comfortably call a “man of God,” but this church leader truly is. I have great respect for this man of God! It would be wonderful if he and his wife lived in Alaska, so I could see him more often, but this isn’t the case. He told me this just a couple of years ago. You’ll see why I’m not naming his name.
He had a vision in which he saw a wall, which is perhaps near, or maybe even in part of heaven, which had a terrible, loud ruckus going on behind it—disturbing sounds of people going through really heavy stuff. If I remember correctly (I have this conversation taped, which I could check someday—if I can find it), he asked God what was going on behind that wall, and God told him these people were working things out that they hadn’t worked through on earth so they could go to heaven, eventually.
This pastor then asked God for scriptural support, and God gave him some scriptures of which I don’t recall. I didn’t see totally obvious proof from these texts, which is probably why he likely still isn’t teaching this publicly, and is why I haven’t pursued this further, myself. But maybe these scriptures weren’t total proof for me because I misunderstood the concept, thinking that this place was a way for some to get around the otherwise clear teaching of Heb. 10:26-39, etc.. But today, this very day, 1/18/09, I think I may be for the first time, understanding how this wall fits within the parameters of scripture. Because of this incredible pastor’s very close relationship with God, his rare-for-this-day high level of holiness, and his keen gift of discernment of spirits, I am very much inclined to believe that this place he saw really does exist, that his vision is from God and not the dark side. I wish you could all meet him someday. I really do.
It occurred to me today what God may have been trying to tell this pastor by showing him this dream. And I’m going to tell him what I’ve written here, so he can consider this interpretation, himself. I could be wrong, but here it is.
Even though this man of God’s character is virtually impeccable—I mean he actually told me once that he had no willful sin in his life. And he wasn’t bragging, for he doesn’t brag. I believe he was trying to teach me that I needed to be able to say this too. And at that particular time, I couldn’t totally say his same statement back. Years later, I admitted to him this. This time, I was able to say ~”I don’t knowingly have any willful sins [that lead to death] in my life, either.”
What I’m trying to carefully get to here is that I think at the time he got this vision, there was possibly an area in his life that would have ordinarily kept him out of heaven. He may have been sinning without being fully aware he was, and maybe this could have put him with the others behind this wall, had he died having not overcome in this area while still on earth.
In one of the teachings I have of his on CD, which is otherwise thrillingly excellent, he taught something like: in some cases, it may be love to put back on people what they put on us, referring to when we’re cursed by people, perhaps with a disease. And this pastor wouldn’t have publicly taught this if he believed this wasn’t the right thing to do.
I believe the Bible is very clear that we should never curse anyone no matter how much they are cursing us. Maybe the person deserves it, but only God has the right to decide, for only He sees the whole picture. This is one of the reasons why I believe it’s important to pray in tongues a lot, especially if one is cursed a lot, for then God prays perfectly through us without us having to make these decisions that we’re not designed to be able to make. Paul said he had to pray in tongues a lot, and this preacher is definitely Paul-like, so maybe tongues is the answer here, instead of what this pastor was teaching.
In this same CD teaching series, this man of God had talked about how he had battled with cancer for days until it finally left him. Smith Wigglesworth, an also incredible man of God, was at one point deathly sick. A man came over and rebuked the demon, and Wigglesworth was instantly healed!
A Gift that Will Set Many Free, part of my Let Us Be ONE prophecy, talks about how curses can make Christians sick to the point they can’t even walk, and how praying in tongues is a significant way to be set free. I believe the most significant reason God gives us (available to everyone!) this peculiar gift is because He doesn’t want us to see and even understand all of the demonic yuck we’re dealing with when we’re praying in this supernaturally perfect way that gets right to the heart of the matter. And we can pray for others in this way, to set them free!!
Smith Wigglesworth learned the incredible importance of praying in tongues a lot: Smith Wigglesworth: “With a CONSTANT FILLING, You Will SPEAK IN TONGUES Morning, Noon and Night”
So I think, from a Biblical perspective, that if there is a purgatory-like place that people go to before they are allowed to enter heaven, it is only for those born-again believers who are not knowingly willfully sinning sins that lead to death. If someone has additional insight, I’m interested.
To add further clarity as to where the dividing line is, that ‘Christians’ who willfully sin sins that lead to death (Hb. 10:26-39) will indeed go to hell and not purgatory, here is an example of a pastor who died and came back to tell us where he would have spent eternity—and why. And he is reportedly very much a changed man when it comes to willful sinning in any area. Reinhard Bonnke has an excellent DVD on this amazing story, entitled: “Raised from the Dead.”
(By the way, Dr. Maurice Rawlings has documented how when people have NDEs, near death experiences and come back to life, if they had actually been in hell and aren’t interviewed within 24 hours, the severe trauma of that experience will ordinarily cause the person’s body to totally block out its memory. So, many of the interviews that are done long after the fact, where the person only remembers bliss, is probably from what they experienced before they reached their final destination.)
Here is one paragraph of David Servant’s report of this African pastor who died, and whose body was even partially embalmed, as he was dead for three days before coming back to life. The angel told him he would have gone to hell because he refused to forgive his wife. It’s crucial that we’re right with everybody!
So what about death-bed confessions? Can we just ask God to forgive us when we’ve knowingly hurt people, not having gotten right with them? It’s interesting what this pastor was told. If we’re not like the thief on the cross, who just found out the truth moments before he died, would waiting till the last minute work for us too, having willfully, knowingly sinned for years…?
So that’s my take on this. I know very well that it really is hard, right now, to live the way Jesus requires. Swimming against the powerful, deadly, and even attractive currents we face every day is not easy. But really, is giving into sin really even an option? To me, the question now should rather be: how will I overcome? What do I need to do to live right with God and people? How do we do real Christianity?
“Who-Goes-to-Heaven Scriptures” should have been 101 teaching that we all were taught as little children. It can be a shocker to now just see this for the first time as adults. But this isn’t the only issue we’ve been misled in.
This is how active, demonic deception works. And this is why praying in tongues is still very important—a gift that I need to write more about. If Luther and his followers prayed in tongues often, and especially had they learned how to forgive all of those ‘church’ leaders who hated Luther, he probably would have seen what we are now seeing, and wouldn’t have entertained the idea of sinning boldly. This is so sad. I greatly admire Luther’s stand against false teaching. But the poison Luther ended up teaching may have even been worse, and has clearly led millions astray.
The darkness was so dark in that day, he tragically never did get free enough to have eyes to see and ears to hear what the Word of God really says, and what the Holy Spirit was trying to tell him, trying to lead him into all truth, as Jesus said the Comforter would. but we must have ears to hear.
It appears that we have an opportunity right now to see real Christianity happen among large communities. Because we’re finally seeing what the Bible really does say AND we have the threat of social unrest at our doorstep. God is saying our cushy lifestyles are gone. But these could be the best days of our lives! For once ‘ONE’ happens (Jesus’ prayer for us in John 17, that we would be one with each other, in Him), it will probably become relatively easy to live holy lives, pleasing to the Lord. Because we’ll be a group, each member doing the tasks they’re gifted to do. And the presence of God will be so strong among us. We’ll be able to go through everything—as a knife through butter—I imagine. See part 3 of: ALCC Reinstates Group Prayer | My Thoughts on the Worship Room Concept | One of the Greatest Adventures of All Time.
The main thing is right now, during this still dark period: let’s persevere and “work out our salvation through fear and trembling” as the Holy Spirit will enable us to, as Paul clearly said. Through Him, we can do it. And the results will be glorious! I think people will come from all around to experience what we have.
Paul guaranteed that “When the sufferings of Christ flow in our lives, His comfort flows” (2 Cor. 1). We will be so blessed!
Let’s keep our eye on the prize and the joy that is to come. Knowing what the minimum requirements are to enter eternal life with our heavenly Father is very important, but I think our goal should be to “make our calling and election sure” by aiming to hit the bulls-eye of what God is leading us to be and do. And together, it will be so much easier, and so much more fun—fullness of joy!!!
All of what the devil offers is a delusion that isn’t really fulfilling even now. How many Americans are really happy with all their stuff? The only way to be happy is to jump in and totally shut the door to the devil.
It’s time to really get serious, and the more of us that totally jump in and shut de do’, the easier it will be for each of us, working together in our unique giftings, all led by the Holy Spirit and learning from each other. Awesome!! Awesome! I can’t wait.
Freedom in Christ realized — together as ONE!!!!!!!!!!
Praise God! ONE can happen!!!
Jeff Fenske : )
Jason Stoddard NYC
God Bless you Jeff!It is so refreshing to hear these truths! God woke me up to the lies in christianity 3 years ago and told me to write a short book calle”Once saved always saved” the greatest lie in Christianity- Can I send you the rough draft for your review and comments? You have quoted the exact same scriptures I use in my book- I have tried to share these truths with many pastors and churches, they are not interested and have practicaaly thrown me out- it is very sad how decieved and stubborn they are-
Jason
Jeff Fenske
Jason, I’m reading through the comments, and I’m sad to see that I missed yours so many years ago. Please forgive me. I apologize. I definitely would have written back had I seen it.
If you’re still interested in corresponding, please let me know here, and we’ll figure out a way. I hope you’re still interested in this crucial topic.
Jeff
pete
Jeff, Great post, it is nice to see truth being boldly proclaimed. I went down a similar path to you and have been fighing an uphill battle to bring the truth to the “many” that are deceived. As the world calamity grows, people are yearning for rest and peace and Jesus is the only way, but they must understand they will face tribulation and they need to endure (abide in Him) till then end. God Bless
Jeff Fenske
Dear Pete,
I appreciate *very much* your encouragement! It’s amazing how ‘uphill’ this battle is, because of how unfathomably powerful and widespread the deception truly is. How can so many preacher/teachers be wrong?
Who would have ever imagined? And the consequences….
And for many, it’s too late.
But the more of us that get it the less strong the stronghold will be. And once ‘ONE’ happens, what a JOY that will be!!!!!!! We’ll be on Cloud 9, eh?
Then the world will know (John 17). What a joy that will be — the responsibility lifted.
FREEeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee———–dom!!!!!!!
God speed and wisdom to you, brother!
And to all others on this path.
“Power to the Peaceful!”
Jeff Fenske : )
Adrian
Brother Jeff,
I find it a blessing to see a brother who sees the truth of God from God. Many are led astray, the blind leading the blind, and there is little truth left in this world with the many having and wanting their ears tickled massing doctrines of lies to themselves for comfort and ease of life in this present age.
We ARE to walk in a manner worthy of the the LORD in all our ways, not sinning willfully, for if we do so after we know the truth we surely trample down the blood that has set us free and treat it as worthless.
Many are teaching the first lie in the word of GOD, ” Eat the fruit of the tree, for surely you will not die” ,akin to ” Sin all you want, Jesus covered it all – you will still go to heaven – you wont die ” this is the common message by todays “churches”, I have been ostracized in many churches for speaking against this, and even for helping the poor. There are a constant barrage of scriptures that teach directly against wilfull sinners inheriting the kingdom, and only selectively and distorted teachings of man that seem to approve it ( but indeed scrpture in no way teaches such filth )
May God bless you in all ways and in ever increasing wisdom .
Your brother in Christ
Adrian
Jeff Fenske
Adrian,
Thanks for taking the time to share your kind and wise perspective!
Your Garden of Eden analogy is interesting: “Eat the fruit of the tree, for surely you will not die.” It’s interesting that this is similar to the theme in the Satanic Bible: “Do what thou wilt,” And so many songs say, “it can’t be wrong if it feels so right.”
And I wonder what percentage of the songs played on “positive and encouraging” K-LOVE are about the theme: God loves us and we’re going to heaven no matter what. It’s pretty obvious the percentage of songs they play that call for repentance to get right with God and people.
It’s like this syrupy glaze that has put a spell on the populace, and then when people obediently point out that this is not what the Bible says, then we’re the enemy; though, very few people will research what the Bible really says about who goes to heaven.
This is an example of how few people are studying and writing about this subject. If you (and others reading) would like, type “who goes to heaven” into Google. This post is number 2, and it’s not even that well read, a couple of thousand hits.
Why oh why aren’t the vast majority of ‘Christians’ willing to research this crucial subject in order to make sure of their eternal destiny? This is maybe the most baffling thing to me.
I’ve been thinking about this for a long time, and the only logical explanation to me is that most people are demonized, spiritually empowered from the dark side to accept the lie at the gut/heart emotional level.
Parents ‘praying’ for their loved ones believe the Lutheran doctrine or crossless evangelicalism; pastors ‘praying’ that ‘their’ people believe their doctrine without question (including tithing — non-Holy-Spirit-led giving); and evangelistic oriented people who ‘pray’ that people believe that they are saved merely because accepted Jesus as their personal savior.
I put ‘praying’ in quotes, because I believe these are to a large extent James-3 curses, wishing things on other people that aren’t based on truth, ‘prayers’ that God doesn’t answer, but Satan does. And it wouldn’t surprise me if just about every American has had people pray for them that they’d drink in and adhere to these false doctrines of demons.
And then it’s no wonder we’re ostracized and ‘prayed’ against (cursed). We’ll spoil the party. The familiar spirits (too familiar to even be noticed) have them where they want them, thinking they’re going to heaven and fighting against those who teach the truth.
It’s almost as if Satan prefers it this way. Those who haven’t “found Christ” are probably more aware of their vulnerable position eternally. And I’m finding some of them to be more loving and open to truth than many ‘Christians.’ To me, some of the most pleasant people are the yoga-type people. They’re more into doing Jesus’ second greatest commandment than most “Christians,” it seems. And they’re certainly not for killing people militarily who didn’t even do anything to us.
It is my opinion that if just one church would get their doctrines right, their lives would line up, and God would show up in somewhat of a permanent Asbury Revival (which I mention at this site).
“God resists the proud.” (current state of the American church)
“But gives grace to the humble.” (‘ONE’can happen. “Then the world will know,” Jesus said in John 17 — when we become ‘ONE’ in Him!)
I think doctrinally is where the main solution lies. But lots of prayer will also be required for people to get deprogrammed enough to even be able to comprehend what the Bible really says about this and other key issues.
And if we can only live, breath and move in the concept that people aren’t the enemy, that our warfare is against the unseen, dark spiritual forces that really, literally have blinded the majority of the people, that even born-again Christians can be so deceived by demons that they really don’t know what they’re doing — then it’s so much easier to forgive them (“Father, forgive them for they know not what they do) when they ‘pray’ against us, try to make sure that good things won’t happen in our lives.
Like for me, I’ve never been able to get married, which is so hard for me. I haven’t dated anyone in 25 years. But had I married the wrong person would I have been able to accomplish what I have through His grace and leading? I don’t think so. One pastor wanted me to get married so I’d be ‘normal’ and I think so I’d drop this ‘unity’ (let’s get right with others so God can move) thing. But then he would ‘pray’ against the right things happening in my life.
Because I believe from lots of experience that the ‘Christians’ cursing people thing is so big, I have a category on this site regarding this 24/7 happening phenomenon. And ‘freedom’ for me is largely about being demon free.
But how do I present the full truth about this epidemic without totally turning people off? I have so much more to say. Some exposés may require more prayer and more time and maybe America losing it all in the natural. But maybe I’m just using this as an excuse so I won’t get busy and write more of what I know.
It’s a lonely world out here, but I really do believe that once the truth happens in just one church, the truth will become mainstream. At least to the point of “then the world will know.”
It’s going to be fun. If we built it He will come.
The problem isn’t with our analysis, for no one seems to be able to refute it. The problem is that most people won’t investigate what the Bible really says. How can this spell be broken?
Cheers to you, Adrian! May we fight this fight together and win!
Jeff Fenske : )
Adrian
Hi Jeff,
At this particular moment i dont have time for a lengthy reply, However but one comment struck me as interesting, One i ponder almost every day of my life
Quote ;”Why oh why aren’t the vast majority of ‘Christians’ willing to research this crucial subject in order to make sure of their eternal destiny? This is maybe the most baffling thing to me.”
Well the Word tells us that “To whom much is given, much shall be received” I think they dont study and meditate on GOD’s word through fear and guilt , The more we know the more is expected of us ! Hence the Servants with the talents were EXPECTED by their Master to use the talents. Indeed let Christians look at the outcome for the servant who did not use his talent! Assigned a place with the unbelievers. The scripture States so obviously that we need to be “careful to engage in good deeds”
Excessive Grace Teaching is the root of many evils! God clearly says fornicators, Liars , Adulterers etc WILL NOT INHERIT THE KINGDOM – to anyone doubting this read , study and meditate on he who sows to the flesh in Galatians ch5 , 6, Then turn to Jude whom tells us clearly , ” AFTER saving a people out of egypt he destroyed them for unbelief”
Now many would say “I believe in Jesus so i am saved” Active faith is neccesary not simply words !! If you belive in Jesus you also belive every word he spoke and adhere to His words lest he come at judgement and say to you or i “Why do you call me Lord Lord and not do as i say”
I hope to speak at length concerning these things brother but at this moment i have study and prayer time.
May God guide you into all peace and strengthen you until the hour arrives
Your brother in Christ
Adrian
kong wee
Thank you Lord Jesus again for leading me here to read about the truth that i have been pondering about. I know you are with me guiding me to the right path. You have been with me and still showing me the way. Thank you Jesus.
kong wee
here it is again for follow up comment.
John Knight
You foolish Galatians, why do you listen to Fenske?
Salvation is by grace, ~not by works,~ that no man should boast.
Jeff Fenske
Paul was calling the Galatians ‘foolish’ because they were listening to the Judaizers who were trying to put them back under the law, instead abiding in Christ, being led by the Holy Spirit, walking in love — life in the Son.
Paul then writes two lists: those who goes to heaven and those who will not, which are in my article under Galatians 5.
David Pawson explains what Paul means by “works” in this video:
(video) David Pawson: Reconciling PAUL and JAMES on ‘WORKS’ — Paul was defending Gentiles from JEWISH works-of-the-*law* LEGALISM; James was defending Jews from Gentile LICENSE TO SIN • When Paul says ‘WORKS’ he means works of the *law*, but James means *actions* • “Faith without actions cannot save you” • FAITH + ACTIONS = SAVING FAITH!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hDY4i-jfsn8
Adrian
John,
No scriptural back up of your answer – please explain fully your false doctrine, and i will debate and overcome you with Gods wisdom !
Saved by Grace , through faith – Romans – I agree with you, but you omit the words of our brother james – Faith without works is inactive/dead being by itself. Scripture must be taken as a whole you cannot merely quote a single line of Romans etc and base your doctrine on that alone.
Foolish galatians you call us , Let us consider the words to the congregation/s in Galatia
Galatians 5:16-25
14For (AA)the whole Law is fulfilled in one word, in the statement, “(AB)YOU SHALL LOVE YOUR NEIGHBOR AS YOURSELF.”
15But if you (AC)bite and devour one another, take care that you are not consumed by one another.
16But I say, (AD)walk by the Spirit, and you will not carry out (AE)the desire of the flesh.
17For (AF)the flesh sets its desire against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh; for these are in opposition to one another, (AG)so that you may not do the things that you please.
18But if you are (AH)led by the Spirit, (AI)you are not under the Law.
19Now the deeds of the flesh are evident, which are: (AJ)immorality, impurity, sensuality,
20idolatry, (AK)sorcery, enmities, (AL)strife, jealousy, outbursts of anger, (AM)disputes, dissensions, (AN)factions,
21envying, (AO)drunkenness, carousing, and things like these, of which I forewarn you, just as I have forewarned you, that those who practice such things will not (AP)inherit the kingdom of God.
22But (AQ)the fruit of the Spirit is (AR)love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness,
23gentleness, (AS)self-control; against such things (AT)there is no law.
24Now those who belong to (AU)Christ Jesus have (AV)crucified the flesh with its passions and (AW)desires.
25If we live by the Spirit, let us also walk (AX)by the Spirit.
26Let us not become (AY)boastful, challenging one another, envying one another.
Please explain in plain sight of us all how we are to take verse 21? That those who practce such things shall NOT inherit the kingdom. Furthermore this letter expressly explains it is written to those under Grace NOT law.
You have taken the Grace of our Lord lightly and as reason to sin. Change your ways or the Lords wrath will be upon you.
Jude explains clearly of your doctrine;
4For certain persons have (M)crept in unnoticed, those who were long beforehand (N)marked out for this condemnation, ungodly persons who turn (O)the grace of our God into (P)licentiousness and (Q)deny our only Master and Lord, Jesus Christ.
You are turning the Grace of God into licentiousness and need to repent and be saved.
5Now I desire to (R)remind you, though (S)you know all things once for all, that [a]the Lord, (T)after saving a people out of the land of Egypt, subsequently destroyed those who did not believe.
6And (U)angels who did not keep their own domain, but abandoned their proper abode, He has (V)kept in eternal bonds under darkness for the judgment of the great day,
7just as (W)Sodom and Gomorrah and the (X)cities around them, since they in the same way as these indulged in gross immorality and (Y)went after strange flesh, are exhibited as an (Z)example in undergoing the (AA)punishment of eternal fire.
8Yet in the same way these men, also by dreaming, (AB)defile the flesh, and reject authority, and revile angelic majesties.
9But (AC)Michael (AD)the archangel, when he disputed with the devil and argued about (AE)the body of Moses, did not dare pronounce against him a railing judgment, but said, “(AF)The Lord rebuke you!”
10But (AG)these men revile the things which they do not understand; and (AH)the things which they know by instinct, (AI)like unreasoning animals, by these things they are destroyed.
May God lead you into truth and out of Darkness – many are called but few are chosen.
Adrian
please excuse any typos in above as i had to type it rather quickly – my apologies
David Green
97% (approx) seems a bit light to me when I think about sins of omission in addition to the sins already mentioned that would keep us out of heaven. Though I have seen numerous people today on the way to work, I have not preached the Gospel to one of them, not even seeking God for an opportunity to witness to them. This is in violition of God’s numerous appeals to obey Him in this and therefore renders me (temporarily at least) lost.
Now, God in His mercy may forgive me (I wouldn’t want to presume on Him for this) as I acknowledge my sin and repent but – there has to be the fruit of repentance. The fruit, naturally, would be to do the very thing that God has commanded (works accompanying faith) and prepared in advance for us to do – in this case to preach the Gospel to all while it is still day.
So, if a day goes by when we do not even attempt to preach the Gospel to the lost then surely we are sinning wilfully and trampling all over Jesus. How many times can we do this before the cross becomes of no effect?
This is not to suggest that anybody here may be guilty of wilfully sinning in this specific area. Rather, I site this as just one example of sin that in my experience many gloss over and justify as if God will wink at it at the Judgement Seat. If we seek God’s persective on all sin, particulary the sins of omission that we may (through hardening our hearts) have become blind to, I would suspect that we would come to understand that false assurance can work both ways.
Jeff Fenske
Dear David,
You make an interesting point about sins of omission, which can also disqualify us from ~”Well done thou good and faithful servant. Welcome into your home I prepared for you!” But I’m not sure I agree with the application of this in regards to you feeling guilty for not witnessing to many that you meet. If you have a special calling to regularly witness, perhaps. I flat out do not, so for me, I don’t worry about it. I’ll explain.
What we must focus on, for sure, is loving everybody as much as we love ourselves — to have this love…. If we really love people, they’ll feel it. And we need to always be ready to have an answer if they ask. And if God prompts us to say something, let us. But too much evangelism nowadays is just invading people’s space, actually disrespecting them.
It seems to me that people mostly really need right now is to see real Christianity in action among a people who really love God and really love people — including the Iraqis, by the way. I want to honor people and not push anybody — to give them space — and maybe a smile.
Most Americans have heard the American version of the gospel. What they need to see is life, peace and joy flowing through us — demon free, forgiving everyone from our whole heart.
When we’re resting in God, what we’re called to do shouldn’t be a chore, a burdensome thing. It should be fun, even. I think.
If we don’t find joy in what we do in ministry it’s probably best not to do it. It may be better then to spend time with God to find out what He desires, and to be open to His leading throughout the day — whatever that is.
I hear: “tell them the truth,” etc.. And “them” is not the person next to me in the store. But I’m not an evangelist. I have my plate full without adding that. Some are called to help the poor directly. God recently told me that I am not, and I don’t even think I was asking. I thought that maybe this will help me explain it to someone else someday. I don’t have the gift of helps (1 Cor. 12), so I don’t worry about it. I do what seems natural, and in that way I can be the most effective. It’s still right for me to help people on occasion in natural ways, but this isn’t my grace.
If we do things that God isn’t leading us to do and that we don’t feel right doing that isn’t being led by the Holy Spirit, so it won’t be Christ flowing through us. It would be a dead work.
I feel compelled to help bring in the kingdom through researching and writing, sounding the trumpet that “Hey, our theology is pretty messed up. But if we get it right we can be ONE with each other in Christ, and then the world will know!”
But evangelists look at me and go “huh?” At least so far, it doesn’t seem to me that the evangelist types are tracking much with me. They don’t seem to want to do the research. So I’m looking for the teacher types. Let’s talk. What does the Bible really say about salvation, tithing, demons in Christians, overcoming sin, and etc.. I spend a lot of time thinking, researching and writing, and at least so far, all for free. To expect an evangelist to do what I do would be a sweaty ministry.
Regarding the sins of omission and salvation, “those who are led by the Spirit are the children of God.” But His yoke is easy, and his burden is light (Matthew and Hebrews). He’ll give us the grace to do what He’s called us to do.
“If you’re led by the Spirit you are not under the law.” This could be doing specific things He is calling us to do. And in so doing we’ll be hot, not lukewarm. And for sure, it’s about always walking in love no matter what — loving even our enemies.
And I quote Jesus in Mt. 7, above: “Not all who say ‘Lord, Lord, will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only those who do the will of my father….”
It would be interesting for someone to study what the entire NT says about sins of omission. Art Mathias http://akwellspring.com spoke this a few days ago in a seminar here in Anchorage, blessing my socks off: “I believe obedience is required for salvation.” And he quoted Romans 2:13 and James 2 as support. What would it mean for us to do James 2 in our day and age?
It’s going to be different for all of us. We know in our hearts what to do, if like you say, we don’t harden them.
And the further America falls into financial collapse the more we’re going to need each other and probably even need miracles, which will happen when ‘ONE’ happens.
It is so important that we learn how to become ONE with each other in Him. “Then the world will know.” Then people will become Christians by the millions! Real Christians!! That’s fruit, eh?
If we build it they will come. Right now, what can we even invite people to? Which churches are right with God and people? Which leaders are qualified? Should we tell people they should go to these mind-control institutions where they insist we give them an old covenant tithe, and frown on us (even praying against us) when we say “No thanks. Something isn’t quite right here. I don’t feel led by the Holy Spirit to help finance churches that don’t teach the truth. And leaders must be ‘blameless’!”
In closing, I’ve been listening to (and sometimes watching) IHOP’s worship (in my links at this site), and they were singing this:
But then they added:
We weren’t meant to be alone in this Christian walk. We are meant to be part of a body of which every part is connected to the Head.
This is the leadership’s job: Ephesians 4:11-16, which they’ve largely abandoned, but some are pressing in.
When ‘ONE’ happens, being Christlike 24/7 will be easy, even though times may get really tough in the external.
I believe the greatest times for the church lay directly ahead.
May we be ‘ONE’ in Him now.
Jeff Fenske
P.S.
David, I meant to also say that I think it’s much easier to not do the things we aren’t supposed to do if we do the things we are meant to do — the putting off and PUTTING ON principle.
So if we abide in Christ, doing what we know we should do it will be much easier to not be in the first Galatians-5 list, the list we don’t want to be in.
And I don’t talk about this enough, perhaps. One of the most ignored sins of omission is the very important issue of getting right with anyone we’ve hurt. And this seems to be especially prevalent among church leadership — which is so disheartening, year after year after year…. I don’t get it. How can they lead (as well as go to heaven) if they won’t apologize to those they’ve hurt? Matthew 5:
We can’t live up holy hands unto the Lord unless our hands our holy. It’s hypocrisy to stand in front of men and women lifting up our hands to the Lord as if we’re right with Him when we’re not right with our brother or sister. No wonder worship is dead.
The Asbury Revival is an excellent example of what can happen when people get right with each other. Asbury Revival, 1970: “Dr. Kinlaw, I am a liar. Now what do I do?” I believe we can have a permanent Asbury revival when we get right with each other and stay right, which true Christian doctrine requires that we do.
And we shouldn’t wait for the revival to get right. Getting right with others will bring in revival — and then we’ll be on cruise control.
Freedom!
: )
Jeff Fenske
Adrian,
Thank you for your wise response to John Knight. You are so right, calling us ‘Galatians’ is so absurd when one understands what Paul is actually saying, as you point out in Galatians 5, and what it really was that he was warning the Galatians about: observing feasts, putting their faith in circumcision, etc..
I’m trying to understand how the OSAS deception is so prevalent. I think of this verse, which is supposed to apply to non-Christians: “The god of this age is blinding the minds of the unbelieving…” But what else can account for such a faulty interpretation of Galatians (in this case) and so much of the NT, that is really so clear regarding who goes to heaven?
It’s like it’s all there in plain sight, but a force emotionally compels people to ignore the obvious and believe a nice sounding, escapism theory that is based mostly on Paul’s introductory comments.
Because I’m convinced that demons are usually involved in this deception, I think the only way many will see is if we not only speak the truth but also pray that their eyes (and hearts) would be opened.
Please, those of you who are called to pray for others, please help in this way. And a big ‘thank you’ to those of you who do!
“The kingdom of heaven suffers violence, and the violent take it by force.”
“Our warfare is not against flesh and blood,” but evil spirits!
Back to John’s comment. Calling us ‘Galatians.’ He said:
I’d like to suggest perhaps some key misconceptions that have become mainstream.
Most ‘Christians’ seem to think that the requirements of the old covenant law were replaced by no requirements at all, because now we’re under grace. Now they say it’s “grace + nothing.”
Titus 2 says what ‘grace’ really is. Grace is the Holy Spirit’s enablement for us to overcome at a higher level than was possible before Pentecost. Jesus said in Mt. 5 that we are now under a stricter requirement. It has been said: “thou shalt not kill, but I say, anyone who hates his brother….” And now we’re responsible to not commit adultery in our hearts, not just to not do the act actually with a person. Etc..
Jesus upped the ante. The Bible says He didn’t abolish the law. Instead, we fulfill the law’s requirements by overcoming sin at this much higher level, now that we’re Holy Spirit empowered.
We won’t kill when we aren’t hating. We won’t do the act of adultery if we’re not even lusting in our hearts.
Now, we’re responsible to be pure inside, and in this way we’re not under the law, but only if we really are pure inside.
As you quoted, Paul sums this up in Galatians 5 by saying:
And then he says what this means specifically:
When we walk in love to this degree then we are no longer under the law, because we have fulfilled the law to the degree now required. We have superceded the law. We’re under a greater grace, a greater enablement, because we have the Holy Spirit indwelling and empowering us. Which is why Jesus to the disciples that it was better for Him to leave, because the Comforter would come and lead us into all truth. This is why Peter so boldly overcame after Pentecost.
It is clear what Paul was actually warning the Galatians about, when he said they were under the law. He was warnig them to not rely upon doing specific works of the old covenant law for their salvation, such as circumcision and observing feasts, such as: Galatians 4
And then he put it all together for us in chapter 5, near the end of his letter — which is commonly how people write. Why would theologians think Paul would be any different?
I’m baffled why the prevailing church doctrine has been mainly taken from Paul’s introductory remarks instead of carefully analyzing what Paul says in his conclusions, after he lays all of the groundwork.
Isn’t that still how most people write today? We don’t usually start with the conclusion. But the church likes to quote Romans 1 and Ephesians 2 over and over as their key texts. And in 1 John, even, they pull out one verse from chapter one to emphasize, the one verse in 1 John that they make sure everyone memorizes — choosing to ignore much of what is said in the rest of 1 John — and the requirements listed in Romans 8, the warning in Romans 11 (the goodness and severity of God), and the requirements listed in Ephesians 5, etc..
How is it that Bible teachers have gotten away with deriving their reverse-Christian doctrines (wide is the road to eternal life) from the introductions of books instead of the bottom lines that come much further down in their writings?
One of the explanations certainly is Luther’s desperation to find favor with the God he utterly feared. He saw in Romans 1: “the righteous shall live by faith,” and yelled ‘Eureka!!!’ — and camped on it. So later, when he saw ‘faith’ explained in Hebrews 10, perhaps he was clinging to his theory so tightly that he couldn’t even see the truths he read and even translated in Hebrews 10. Amazing!
And then church leaders, professors, evangelists, parents, grandparents, and zealous adherents to this doctrine have prayed (James-3 cursed) that their children (and etc.) would believe this teaching.
Thus we have a demon-empowered doctrine of demons that has permeated society so that’s all we hear on ‘Christian’ radio, TV, and almost in every evangelical pulpit.
What else would explain for an almost wholesale rejection of what the Scripture clearly teaches about who goes to heaven? Satan doesn’t want people to even study this subject firsthand. This is a spiritual war. Most people can’t relax inside enough to read these texts without emotional bias.
It’s important for people to realize that God is a gentleman. It’s not Him who is trying to force people’s hearts to not even be willing to look at His Word really says about this subject.
Demons lock people’s emotions up — cause people to knee-jerk react. God gives people liberty and peace — and the power over the spiritual bondage. But many don’t even know they are bound.
Jesus, please help us. Please help people know they’re bound so they can become free!
Adrian, thanks again for your help, and may the truth somehow get out so the percentage of people who are going to heaven will rise exponentially.
2.5% (or even less, now that we have internet porn and the low-cut top epidemic, etc.) is tragic beyond our comprehension. I think it’s one of the main reasons Jesus is so sad, currently.
OSAS is a disaster!
The latter parts of the epistles present the truth that will set many FREE!!!
May we be ‘ONE,’ Jesus heart-cry for us in John 17!
Jeff Fenske
David Green
When my eyes were first opened 8 years ago I knew that I belonged to God. My identity as His was made secure by His Spirit within me. I began to read the Bible and was struck, over time, by some Scriptures that appeared to be at odds with others. God had already confirmed to me that His word was truth so I concluded that my understanding was faulty.
The first struggle I had was in reconciling God choosing us with our responsibility to repent. I had Arminians and Calvinists running around in well-worn circles trying to convince me their doctrine was correct. The main thing they had in common was their insistence that the opposing doctrine was inspired by demons. The invariable fruit of this would be thinly discuised hatred.
There is a third group that lean towards the doctrinal position of Arminians but would not describe themselves as such. At this present time I find that I am more likely to be in this ‘camp’ theologically speaking.
What I would hate to happen is for me or anybody else to get so obsessed with issues such as this that we concentrate most of our efforts on it at the expense of the lost. God knows who are His.
Hika
I haved sinned so many times will he ever forgive me?
Adrian
Hika,
God will and has authorized forgiveness IF you meet the prescription of scripture BY the words of our LORD Jesus and HIS words through the Apostles.
1) Confess your sins to GOD
2) Repent ( CHANGE the way you think and act – away from evil to good )
3) Bring forth fruit fitting with repentance – showing and accepting that GOD’S way is superior to a life of sin and brings great rewards, because you love HIM you will do as He says. remember that obedience is more pleasing to Him than sin offerings or any sacrifices ever were !.
I will explain this clearly from The book of 1 john later today along with other scriptures. May GOD bless you and bring you peace. I will pray for you –
You brother in Christ Adrian
Jeff Fenske
Dear Hika,
Thank you very much for asking and being so vulnerable. Even though nobody knows who you are, this is huge! Thank you so very much!!! You are an example to many!
The answer is: yes — absolutely! The only thing God won’t forgive is the sin against the Holy Spirit, and if you had done that you wouldn’t be asking this or even looking to repent and get right with God. For those who would sin this sin would have a heart so hard….
I think, but I’m not sure that the sin a against the Holy Spirit is something telling God we don’t want anything to do with Him, the third person of the trinity, the Holy Spirit again. We don’t want His influence. I really believe if a person had sinned this sin he/she wouldn’t be looking to repent at all.
Okay, having said that I must say: many ‘Christians’ will just say to ask forgiveness, accept Jesus’ free, cleansing gift and you’re in — “don’t worry about a thing.” But that’s not it.
We must be holy. It’s right to ask Jesus to forgive us for what we’ve done, but we must also be willing to do what He prompts us to do (the right things that we feel in our heart to do, etc.), especially when it comes to our relationship with others — getting right and staying right.
Many say “what’s been done has been done,” and we don’t need to go back there anymore. “It’s all under the cross right now.
When we confess our sins and ask forgiveness it is under the cross. Our sins our covered by Jesus’ shed blood, but then we must stay in Him and live in Him, under His covering. “Abide in Me,” Jesus said. “Those who are led by the Spirit are the children of God.” He’s our Father. We can trust Him to lead us into all truth through the Holy Spirit Who now lives in us. Freeeeeeeeeeeeeeee———–dom!!!!!!!
What if we see someone we’ve hurt and think, “maybe I should tell him/her I’m sorry. Please forgive me.” That’s probably the Holy Spirit leading us. As Christians, we need to be right with everybody. Jesus said in Matthew 5:
23 “If therefore you are offering your gift at the altar, and there remember that your brother has anything against you, 24 leave your gift there before the altar, and go your way. First be reconciled to your brother, and then come and offer your gift.
Most ‘Christians’ don’t do this, and then they carry around this guilt; even though, the preachers and the songs on ‘Christian’ radio say, basically: “Don’t worry; be happy.”
We don’t have to worry and we can always be happy when we know we are right with God and people, and we know that He is for us and not against us. “God resists the proud and gives grace to the humble.”
And “the Holy Spirit will lead [us] into all truth.” We’re to stay in step with the Holy Spirit.
So if we lied to people, were mean to, made fun of, laughed at, put down or hurt in some way people (maybe even big-time!), it’s right to get right with them. If we know they know and have ought with us, it’s right for us to come clean by apologizing.
Sometimes it’s even right to pay restitution.
If we’re at home and we think of someone we should apologize to, this is probably God and we shouldn’t ignore this. We should pick up the phone, or even meet them in person, whatever it takes, whatever is real love. Then we can raise our clean hands in worship to Him Who sits on the throne: “Thank You, Jesus! I want to be like You. Thank You for helping me obey and walk in truth.”
And the amazing thing:
people think it would be so humiliating to apologize and admit they are wrong. But mainly what is happening is that we have egg on our faces. We can act like it’s not there, but people can see it. When we apologize, we get the egg off our faces and open up a door for unity, making it far easier for the person we hurt to forgive and be free themselves.
A great example of this is the young woman at Asbury who lied to so many people and who got so much joy when she apologized to each one she thought of: Asbury Revival, 1970: “Dr. Kinlaw, I am a liar. Now what do I do?”
I love what happened there and how it happened. And this kind of thing would remain, I believe, if we get right and stay right…” Moves of God even greater than this will happen. And the joy…!!!
I really like what is going on at IHOP right now. All of my IHOP posts (including where to watch online for free!): http://onecanhappen.com/category/ihop-•-one. Jesus prayed that we would have joy in His prayer that we would be ONE in John 17.
Many pastors put on a smile and act like everything is all right when it isn’t. That’s fake joy. What many at IHOP are getting is real joy, and that revival would take off way more if they’d emphasize getting right with the people they hurt, which was the emphasis at Asbury.
IHOP is really awesome. I watch the awakening online quite often. Many would be blessed to do the same and perhaps even visit there. I’ve already been to many of these type of meetings, and have had significantly awesome encounters with God. And this has helped me greatly get through these dry times.
I was at a ‘church’ on Sunday, and it was like reverse-IHOP. The worship was dead. “God resists the proud, but gives grace to the humble.” It’s clear that Wes Hall (leader at IHOP) isn’t carrying around a lot of baggage. He’s free, literally, so he can lead. He’s qualified to lead, and is really fun to watch. There’s a reason why God showed up in his classroom, starting the revival there. [I’m trying to encourage others, not just you, here, Hika.]
Come on everybody, let’s get right and stay right. God can’t and won’t manifest His presence to people who resist Him. People would die if He showed up in power at most ‘churches’ today. So many ‘church’ leaders have lied and hurt people and act like nothing is wrong. Or they are covering for others who’ve hurt people.
It’s time to get right with everybody. This will be fun. It might be hard at first, like the woman at Asbury, thinking this would kill her to apologize to those she hurt. But the truth was that it healed her, and her joy was full, once she started the ball rolling. Praise God!
When the joy of the Lord is our strength, doing the right thing is not hard. And when a lot of people are doing the same, it will actually be easy to overcome. Check out parts 2 and 3 of this (the first part didn’t really happen): ALCC Reinstates Group Prayer? | My Thoughts on the Worship Room Concept | Joyner’s Vision: “One of the Greatest Adventures of All Time!”
Praise God! I can’t wait. I’ve also been yearning for many years that we’d have a worship/prayer room that people could go to to hang out and seek God, and experience God.
I also recommend learning to speak in tongues. One of the things that frustrated me about the Vineyard movement was their deemphasis of this very important gift. We need this to fight demons, breaking stuff off of ourselves and others that we don’t want to know the specifics of; therefore, this peculiar but very effective gift that the Devil hates with a passion. He’s rather that no one ever would pray this effective way again. I talk about this here: I’ve finally shared much of what I know about and what can be done through the TREMENDOUS and mostly misunderstood and underused gift of tongues. A reader thankfully put me over the edge : )
I summary: yes, God will forgive you if you fully repent and ask Him to. And then we have to stay right. For people in Kansas City, right now, it’s nice that they have a wonderful place to go. I wish I could say that is true also here in Anchorage. On our own, it’s much harder, but we can overcome still. Our life depends on it.
And people, please pray for the church leaders that they’ll get right so God can come. Many aren’t even supposed to be leaders, and should let those who are supposed to lead lead.
It’s time to get right with everybody. It’s always been time, but now we’re looking at very tough times coming soon. We need to be ONE, everyone. There’s no time to mess around anymore. Let’s all be ‘ONE,’ Jesus prayer for His people in John 17. Then we can get through this with heads held high, holding hands, hearts knit together.
Freeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee————-dom!!!!!!!!!
I hope all goes well for you, Hika. If there is anything else, please free to comment.
And if you haven’t seen this, this should bless your heart too: “No One Else Can Love You…” — IHOP 9/19/09.
God bless!!!
Jeff : )
sue
Where in Kansas City?
Jeff Fenske
Sue,
The International House of Prayer (IHOP), headed by Mike Bickle: http://ihop.org
It’s my opinion that they’re somewhat in lull right now, unable to progress until they get their doctrine (and consequently their lives) more fully right.
I’ve documented on this site how they’re actively bucking this very crucial who-goes-to-heaven truth. It’s so sad that they’re so close, yet so far away.
They are in many ways on the right track, but I really think it will take an understanding of this very doctrine in order for a group of people, somewhere, to fully have “a cistern that can hold Water.”
They keep asking God to come in His manifest presence. But He can’t until we are internally holy to the right-with-God-and-people, Biblical degree.
If He came in great glory the way people are now, many of the ‘Christians’ would probably die.
The sin in the ‘church’ is so great!
Jeff
Adrian
Hi Jeff and Hika,
To my knowledge there are four accounts of Sinning ( Directly ) against the Holy spirit mentioned in scripture so maybe this could be a useful topic to cover here or on a new thread ?
Regards
God bless you both
Ade and family
Jeff Fenske
Adrian,
I put up this post for you to share your perspective on this topic, if you’d like: [Discussion] What is the unforgivable sin against the Holy Spirit?
Go for it, and God bless!
Jeff
Adrian
Hi Hika and Jeff,
I have commented on the other thread concerning sinning against the spirit. Hika due to the amount of study / teaching i have to do i sometimes struggle to find time to write articles / letters etc . If you would please find time to read 1 John and see that if you are honest and confess your sins , repent of them and dont keep sinning wilfully GOD is able and ready to honour HIS word for the forgiveness of your sins in JESUS blood.
Jesus loves you so much and it seems clear that you love HIM 9 hence your Godly conscience ) May God bless you deeply and strengthen you with His Holy Spirit
Your brother in Christ
Adrian
bigritchie
Jeff, I would like to add something here. I noticed you quoted from Matthew Chapter 5 through 7.
In Matthew 5, Yahshua makes it very clear he did not come to abolish the law, and then goes on to command us to DO AND TEACH THE LEAST OF THE LAW, and warns that if we do not DO AND TEACH the LEAST of the Torah, we will be LEAST in the Kingdom if we even get there at all.
When Yahshua says “Depart from me you workers of Iniquity” the word Iniquity in the Greek is ANOMIA, A meaning WITHOUT, NOMIA meaning TORAH (5 books of Moses, aka the law)
Mainstream christianity in fact teaches against the very teachings of the Messiah! And if you obey the Creator or the Messiah, you are attacked as a “legalist”, by the “Illegalist”
Jeff Fenske
Dear bigritchie,
What you’re quoting is Jesus’ intro to what He then gives specific examples of. Like if we love our enemies and don’t hate we won’t be murdering anyone. If we aren’t lusting in our hearts we won’t be doing the act with someone. We have a higher standard now.
I like to look at the big picture to understand a specific verse. What is the consensus of the New Testament as a whole? And not only what did Jesus teach, but what did He do?
I agree that the law isn’t done away with. It’s just superseded. Born-again believers now have the Holy Spirit in them to lead them into all truth.
We fulfill the law when we walk by the Spirit, when we abide in Christ — when we do the Greatest Two Commandments.
Paul says in Romans 8:
And Galatians is crystal clear too, which Adrian addresses in comment #18 and I do in comment #22.
In this way, Jesus interprets Jesus as do Paul and others.
Perhaps you’d be interested in my tithing article: The Day that Tithing Ended — To Now Be Led By the Holy Spirit.
That’s my take,
Jeff : )
bigritchie
Jeff I suggest you read all of Paul’s letters and not just pick out a numbered sound byte called a “verse”.
The Letter to the Romans upholds the law OVER AND OVER.
Romans 3:31 (Which happens to be in the famous “Romans Road)
Do we make void the Torah through Faith? GOD FORBID, We establish the Torah.
Religious gurus love to quote Romans 7:6, but never quote the others in the chapter
Why not Romans 7:12 “for the Law is holy, and the commandment is just and good!
Romans 7:22 For I delight in the law of God according to the Inward man
Romans 7:25 “I thank God through Messiah Yahshua, our Lord, SO THEN WITH THE MIND I ALSO SERVE THE LAW OF GOD, BUT WITH THE FLESH SERVE THE LAW OF SIN.
People love to quote Ephesians 2:8-9 but you never see them quote verse 10.
10. For we are his workmanship, Created in Messiah Yahshua UNTO GOOD WORKS, which God HATH BEFORE ORDAINED THAT WE SHOULD WALK IN THEM.
People never quote what happens with Paul in the Book of Acts
Acts 24:14 But this I confess unto thee, that after the way which they call a heresy, so I worship the God of my fathers, BELIEVING ALL THINGS WHICH ARE WRITTEN IN THE LAW AND THE PROPHETS
Acts 25:8 While he answered for himself, Neither against the Law of the Jews, neither against the Temple, Nor against Caeser, have I offended in anything at all.
Acts 18:21 But bade them farewell, saying, I MUST BY ALL MEANS KEEP THE FEAST THAT COMETH IN JERUSALEM
Why not quote
Romans 2:12 For as many as have sinned without Law will also perish without Law, and as many as have sinned in the Law will be judged by the Law 13 (for not the hearers of the Law [are] just in the sight of God, but the doers of the Law will be justified;
Boy, you never hear a Christian church in America say “The doers of the Law will be justified.
Paul upholds the Torah time after time, but for some reasons religious gurus and leaders never quote them.
What about when Paul speaks of the mystery of INIQUITY that was already at work and would be manifest in the last days?
Iniquity in the Greek means The State of being without Torah, or without the Law.
The anti-Messiah is called the TORAH LESS ONE!
The Revelation of the Messiah given to John tells us that those who are given the right to eat of the tree of life are those that KEEP THE COMMANDMENTS AND HAVE THE TESTIMONY OF MESSIAH! 3 Times Revelations says this
So why would “Legalizers” be given the right to eat from the tree of life, yet Yahshua teaches that those who are without Torah will be cast into the pit in Matthew 7!
Friends “verses” can be some of the most dangerous things on the planet, you have to read the entire thing! Verses never even occured in the Scriptures until a Priest riding on horseback through France added them as a study guide a few hundred years ago! Yet American christianity takes one verse out of a LETTER Paul wrote as a excuse to not obey the Messiah!
Friends we are in the Great Deception of the last days! The Deception is that you prayed a prayer, punched your ticket to heaven, and that if you obey the Creator of the Universe and the Messiah you are a legalist and “attacking the grace of Jesus”
We need to keep in mind our religious gurus, pastors, preachers, teachers, will not be there with us on judgment day when we stand in front of the King. “My pastor said” is not going to cut it.
The very essence of making Messiah your Master, is you DO WHAT HE SAYS.
Friends the “Law” was NOT NAILED TO THE CROSS, THE GREEK USES A SPECIFIC WORD CALLED DOGMA, IT MEANS MAN MADE RELIGION. Our man made religions that add or subtract to the Scriptures were nailed to the Cross!
No longer “Under the law” does not mean the law was abolished, read the Torah! This is a ancient saying! You fall “Under the law” when you break the law! If you keep the law it is a blessing!
In your english versions of the Bible when it says “Messiah was the end of the law”, it should say “Messiah is the GOAL OF THE TORAH”.
Friends it is time to leave our religious dog and pony shows behind and start following the Messiah, and doing what he says!
Adrian
The prophets and the law are fulfilled ( finished / perfected ) in this one statement . You shall love the Lord your GOD with all your heart, spirit and mind and your neighbour as yourself. For if the law of love is fulfilled in you, Never would you commit crimes against the law and so although not under the law ( of GOD through Moses ) We Christians are under the law of love which fulfills all.
He who desires to live by the law must uphold ALL of the law, This is the reason the a better covenant was arrived at ( for who under heaven could fulfill the law but Jesus, Messiah / The WORD in flesh ). Does this mean we abolish the law? No but we fulfill the law not through anything of ourselves but through Him who died for us
May GOD bless you
Hashem Roi ( the Lord ( is )my Shepherd )
Jeff Fenske
I agree with Adrian that: “We Christians are under the law of love which fulfills all.” For Galatians 5:14 says:
But we must be doing the loving. Christ enables, empowers us so we can love our neighbors as ourselves (including the Iraqis, by the way — and those who’ve sinned in ways we haven’t. So we ~”take the plank out of our own eyes so we can see clearly to…”).
When we live in Christ, we are not under the law, because we are going above and beyond its requirements.
It’s not grace + nothing that replaced the law (the common teaching of our day), but the greatest two commandments, or at the very least, the second greatest commandment, the law of love. But we can’t obey the second greatest commandment if we’re not obeying the first, I’m thinking.
We do have greater grace in the new covenant, Which is the Holy Spirit Who now lives in us, enabling us to fulfill the greater requirements to not just do right, but to also think right — that are hearts are pure, not just our actions.
Jeff Fenske
Adrian
Bigritchie,
Sorry i refer to you in such a way but i am not sure of your true name and do not wish to offend.
Just a question really, are you suggesting or indeed stating that Christians must uphold the whole of the law as spoken of in Deuteronomy 28 ?
I just ask so i may not waste time in my further reply to this subject.
May i also ask ( not out of disrespect ) whether you speak biblical Hebrew and Koine Greek , latin and middle english ( middle english as i note you quote from the king James Version )
Regards
Adrian
Adrian
Comment deleted with Adrian’s gracious permission, because it was exceedingly long (4,225 words) and mostly just large portions of scripture.
bigritchie
Sir, I would suggest you keep reading Shimon Keffa’s vision, it had nothing to do with unclean foods, the entire thing was about calling other RACES unclean.
Shimon Keffa’s vision also proves that Yahushua of Nazareth never mentioned one word to Keffa about changing food laws. It proves that even 15 years after Yahushua walked the earth that Keffa still abode by the food laws.
In fact when Shaul speaks of Meat, the word Broma is used which means “Clean according to Jewish Law”.
I would suggest a reading of the entire Book of Acts, where Yaakov, the brother of the Messiah, which I believe you call “James” in English in honor of “King James” says “Look at all the brothers Zealous for the Torah”.
I might suggest you read about Shaul going to the temple and doing sacrifice, and Nazarite vows. I might suggest Shaul keeping the Shabbot over 84 times in Acts.
I have found many American christians believe the entire world is under the great deception but them. I pray you will seek the truth no matter where it leads you, rather then obeying the religious doctrines of men.
I might also suggest you study the prophecies in the Torah and Prophets of the 1,000 year reign where it proves that the Sabbaths, Feast, and Torah will be kept. The only thing that changed was the Levite Priesthood, a new priesthood was set up with Yahushua as the Cohen Gadol (High Priest) so that gentiles could partake in the priesthood also. The same Torah is written upon our heart as YirmeYahu and Hebrews teaches. (Jeremiah)
I would also suggest your English versions of the Bible have biased translations in various places to hide the meaning of some words.
Shalom friend, I am off to study some dead sea scrolls. I pray you ask the Creator to show you the truth no matter how hard it turns your world upside down.
Adrian
I find your comments are sad and as i said unbacked by scripture !
I have read the books in all the mentioned languages so may i add and suggest you pray for the spirit, your arguement is null and void and you lack GOD’s spirit being in bondage still carrying a veil of moses over your eyes .
If you had completed reading my comment i did cover the fact you may say it was totally covering only “unclean races” and as all can see you have addressed NONE of the points i bought forward, which shows you have no knowledge or Spirit .
Your unusual pronunciation of Jesus’ name and tradition to what YOU believe to be the correct pronunciation of GOD’s name and HIS SONS name will not help you when He requires you to fulfill the whole law.Not all who call on the name of JESUS are saved.
I bid you day and shall not waste my time striving over the law with you further.
Adrian
I live a life of Godliness and am a GOD fearing man, i pray the LORD will show you the spirit of which you are devoid. I will not be held in bondage as you are thus we cannot be friends.
For what working have darkness and light together.
May GOD judge between you and me at the resurrection of the dead.
bigritchie
Comment deleted without bigritchie’s permission, because it was exceedingly long (4,126 words) and mostly just portions of scripture under topics that didn’t even pertain.
Jeff Fenske
To Adrian and bigritchie,
Adrian, I very much do appreciate your defense, but I personally don’t see much point in spending a lot of time refuting those who think we are still under the law when the NT is so crystal clear on the subject. I personally have better things to do. If they want to run with something that Paul said in the midst of developing his thought, choosing to ignore his clear conclusions, then that’s their business. I choose to follow the Holy Spirit and the Greatest Two Commandments which fulfill and supercede the law. If they want to live in bondage, that’s their right.
To both of you, the main thing I’m concerned about here is that your statements in just these last two days have taken up about 1/3 of the space of this post, and this post is one of my most important, and has been online for over 2 years!
And much of it seems to be just copying and pasting scripture, or in bigritchie’s case, your last comment (#39) seems to hardly even apply to what we’re discussing. It’s as if you dumped your notes from something you’ve written for something else.
I’m not sure what to do about this. In the future, I could go back to screening all of the comments ahead of time, but I don’t want to do this.
If I delete these two super-long posts, particularly Adrian’s (#35), then the posts in between won’t make sense.
I’m inclined to remove #34-39, entirely (and this one). The subject is pretty much off-topic. I basically adhere to what Andrew Strom said: Andrew Strom: RETURN of THE JUDAIZERS?? http://onecanhappen.com/2009/09/06/andrew-strom-return-of-the-judaizers
Perhaps there is a move to return to the law because the church now basically teaches we don’t have to do anything. They know something is terribly wrong, but are running to what Paul directly warned against doing.
The answer, I believe, is accepting what the Bible really says, which is largely what this post is about.
What do you think? You guys had your debate. Is it important that comments 34-39 be left up until our government takes down the internet, or is it okay that I delete all of these tomorrow?
One of the reasons I’m hesitating a bit to make my $1,000 offer official, a reward for anyone who can refute this post, is that the comments may be more numerous than what I’m interested in carefully reading and responding to.
And what do I do when the comments are so many that this page gets so huge and takes forever for some to be able to download?
I’m not a webmaster. I don’t understand yet what I can do to break up the comments into different pages. There seems to be this option, but so far, it doesn’t seem to make a difference, having just checked it.
Anyway, God bless you both. Perhaps you didn’t realize how much space you were taking.
I think that after real revival happens, what may be called The Third Great Awakening, it will be obvious which doctrine about salvation is indeed right. I doubt if there will be many Judaizers at that point.
We’ll all be ONE!
Jeff Fenske
Adrian
Greetings brother,
As said i will not partake any longer in a FRUITLESS discussion about the law. Christ set us free for freedom indeed.
I am perfectly happy for you to remove this particular debate as i feel without a doubt we have proven through scripture in context that according to the book of acts and romans we the gentiles are simply to abstain from, Blood, things strangled, fornication and other than these things no burden is laid upon us.
May GOD bless you my brother
Yours in Christ Jesus
Adrian
bigritchie
Adrian keep reading the same chapter in Acts, it says Moses is preached every Sabbath to learn the rest. Those 5 things were to start them out for fellowship. Is it not amazing when we read more then what our religious leaders tells us!
Jeff, you need to understand the culture of the day. There was the Creator’s Torah given to Moses, and then there were the writings of the Rabbinical Sages, which became the so Called “Oral Torah”.
For example the Pharisees had added over 1,000 laws to the Sabbath day alone.
When Yahshua healed the blind man, he broke 3 rabbinical Rules, NOT THE TORAH.
In the New Testament around 15 words are all translated into LAW, not all of which mean Torah. “Under the Law” is also another common saying to Jewish people. It just means that you have broken the law, and you are now “Under the penalty of it” When Paul says we are “No longer under the Law” he is not abolishing the Torah. Words like “Legalist” are talking about Orthodox Judaism and their mountains of “Oral Torahs”
It always amazes me how people teach the Torah is abolished in direct contradiction to what the Messiah taught, the same Messiah that commanded us to do and teach the Least of the Torah.
I hope you two understand also, I have never one time said that you get “saved” by keeping the law.
Repentance and Faiths “saves” you. You keep the law because you love Elohim the way he wants, and love your neighbor as yourself.
Jeff whether you delete the comments or not is up to you. Personally I think this ties 100% into OSAS, and who gets to go to heaven, and it is a worthy discussion. Someone that likes to read comments, will read them all regardless, and someone who does not will not read any of them.
I personally would prefer you not delete any of them, as it is the perfect example of the Mystery of Iniquity. (There is that word again, Iniquity, ANOMOS/ANOMIA in the Greek, The state of being without Torah) After all they do not call the Anti-Messiah the LAWLESS one for nothing.
Adrian
Hi Jeff, Ritchie.
Ritchie the whole problem here is you have made distinction now between law / ceremonial law / tradition etc . I did ask you this question as before and may i add you never answered it.
Which laws do you say we must keep to be acceptable at the resurrection ?
This would be a talking point concerning the promise and would be directly linked to the post.
bigritchie
Did Yahshua The Messiah not make it clear that “Man shall live by every word that comes out of the Mouth of Elohim”?
Did Yahshua of Nazareth not make it clear that we are “To do and teach the LEAST of the law, and that if we do not we will be LEAST in the Kingdom of Heaven”?
It is a undeniable FACT according to prophecies from the Torah and Prophets, that the Feast, Sabbaths, New Moons, etc, will be kept during the 1,000 year reign.
Once again two things changed according to the New Covenant is the Levite Priesthood. A new Priesthood set up with Messiah as the High Priest is what changed.
The second is that the Torah would now be written upon our hearts. Which is even more glorious then being written upon the stone.
A shadow picture was of this was at Mount Sinai. Moses broke the first tablets of Stone, and YHWH made Moses bring his own tablets the next time. The same thing was written. We now bring our hearts to the Creator and he writes his laws upon them.
The New Testament defines Sin (1 John 3:4) as transgression of the Torah. It gets to define sin, not our religious gurus. This same letter written by a Apostle of the Messiah who walked with him everyday tells us “If we do not keep the commandments, we are liars and the truth is not in us”. There is nothing in the letter about picking and choosing which commandments we like or do not like and forming hundreds of denominational cults. This same letter also tells us the commandments are not burdensome.
Shaul commended the Thessalonians for being like the Assembly in Judea! The church in Judea was made up of Jews, with Yaakov (James) as its leader. The same Yaakov that bragged in Acts to Shaul “See all these followers of the Messiah that are zealous for the Torah!”
The New Testament commands us to walk as Yahshua did when he was alive on earth! Well WWJD? Yahshua kept the Feast, Kept the Sabbath, was a Torah observant Jew, he taught the Torah, and commanded his followers to do and teach the least of the Torah. The Messiah never came to start a new religion that did away with the Religion the Creator had laid down.
Shimon Keffa in his Second Epistle gave us a severe warning regarding the Letters of Shaul. He made it clear that Shaul was a brother, but warned that Shaul’s letters were hard to understand, and warned that if we twist Shaul’s letters as a excuse for LAWLESSness, there is that word again, without Torah, that we do so unto our own destruction.
Adrian
I have no religious leader Ritchie so there goes your theory . absolute last reply on this thread out of respect for Jeff who may remove this post as well.
And may i ask why do you presume every time the scripture says the word “law”, you presume it is speaking of Torah ? every time the WORD says day it is not speaking of evening to morning is it ? ( 24 hours )
Jeff Fenske
Adrian, Ritchie and everyone,
I removed both >4,000-word posts [To compare, this comment is 1,625 words, still lengthy, but only a small portion is inserted scripture].
Adrian, thanks for comments, as always, and your gracious spirit. I agree with you, and especially like how you cited the only points of the law the Jerusalem council decided to keep in effect (Acts 15). I bring up this text in The Day that Tithing Ended — To Now Be Led By the Holy Spirit post.
This Romans 7:6 text is also pertinent:
And of course, Romans 8 is so crystal clear. But even if we didn’t even have Romans, Galatians says enough by itself, as it’s written to those who still “desire to be under the law.” I’ll point out a key text in a few minutes which responds to Ritchie’s claim that we still must observe the feasts, etc..
First, I’d like to point out an interpretation (hermeneutic) problem that has been widespread for years.
I’d like to thank a Bible teacher I sat under in the early ’80s (Jerry W.). He was very encouraging to me in general, but he also taught me the importance of Biblical vs. systematic theology. And he encouraged me to take Biblical theology courses in seminary (which I bring up once in a while that I never did finish).
I also took a lot of systematic theology courses, for they are required, but hardly anyone takes the Biblical theology courses.
For those who are unfamiliar with these terms. Wikipedia distinguishes these techniques in this way http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Biblical_theology:
“Biblical theology can be compared with and is complemented by systematic theology, in that the former focuses on historical progression throughout the Bible while the latter focuses on thematic progression. Systematic theology deals with a single topic in each place it is dealt with, whereas biblical theology seeks to follow the flow of “redemptive narrative” as it unfolds.”
I also have an English literature degree (also, largely thanks to Jerry W.’s interpretation of a word I got from God), which helped me in the discipline of critiquing an author’s style — not just what he/she said, but how they said it.
I think these disciplines are largely missing even among pastors and Bible teachers today. Seminary discourages carefully analyzing the authors’ writing styles when they emphasize systematic theology, which is mainly just pulling verses from various texts and saying this is what the Bible says. Many professors would disagree that this is what’s taught, but that’s what I saw as a student.
They also make such a big deal out of knowing Hebrew and Greek. Where I attended, Trinity Evangelical Divinity School, every M.Div. student (the degree many churches require for pastorship) is required to learn both. But only a small percentage of men (in particular) are gifted in learning languages as adults. And they’ll probably be the only ones who would really learn the languages well enough for them to be useful in Bible study.
Many students who are called into the ministry don’t pursue an M.Div. because of the language requirement, and I saw many who struggled so hard with just being able to learn enough to graduate. And many of these are pastors today who never use Hebrew and Greek.
There really is little need to. The Greek helps are so good, and one can always ask someone who’s a Greek expert.
And then there is the knowledge-puffs-up aspect. “I know Greek so my opinion should be revered above yours.” And it often does get to their heads. There was a lot of pride on campus, but not much spirituality among these types. Graduates think they know how to interpret the Bible because they know Greek. This may have been a necessary tool in the day, but no longer, in my opinion. Knowing the languages is far over-emphasized. And it often results in a swelled head.
Seminaries emphasize systematic theology and knowing Greek, but don’t teach most students how the Bible author’s thought progresses (what their style is), and they don’t teach students how to be led by the Holy Spirit — for they, themselves usually aren’t. In fact, many professors have a lot of hate and anger brewing — perhaps because they know something is wrong but refuse to admit it and come clean.
We shouldn’t just read the Bible and go: “Paul said this and that, so that’s what is true.” There is a progression to Paul’s thought. He starts with an intro, brings up key points in the middle, and ends with his conclusions. A lot of bad doctrine has resulted by emphasizing texts in his intros while ignoring his conclusions — or teaching only the parts of his conclusions that seem to fit with his intro (when the intro is read as a conclusion).
Jerry once told me that not everyone is qualified to interpret the Bible [to the point of being able to determine theology]. It’s a gift, and an art, and then we should be led by the Holy Spirit as well, paying attention to dreams and words of wisdom, etc.. And we must be clean throughout.
Many people will read this article (Who-Goes-To-Heaven…) and scratch their heads wondering how this can be so when hardly anyone teaches this.
I’ve already talked about how most people have many demons in them, affecting their feelings and thinking. People, parents and church leaders pray (James-3 curse) that people believe the current theology, which is often largely doctrines of demons. They may mean well, but they’re James-3 cursing if they’re praying that people believe something that isn’t true. God won’t answer these prayers; demons will.
The demonic aspect is a huge factor, but the lack of knowing how to accurately interpret the Bible is also hugely significant. I think these two factors explain why we’re in the pickle we’re in — why false doctrine has permeated the church so the church is in such a mess — which explains why ONE hasn’t happened. In fact, most teachers don’t even hold being ONE with each other in Christ as a desirable and attainable goal. The scriptures in my logo (at the top of the page) are rarely taught as the norm we should be seeking.
Yeah, there is that factor too. When the Bible teaches something that is so unlike our experience many teachers just totally ignore it. But they won’t step down as teachers either; even though, they can’t understand and teach what the Bible says. And they shun and pray against (James-3 curse) those who do understand and could influence their flock down this path that they don’t understand — but is God’s goal for our lives.
We let our experience dictate what is normal Christianity instead of letting the Bible set the mark.
People do word-studies, thinking they understand what the Bible says once they have their collection of verses on a given topic. But they often totally ignore how these texts fit into the authors’ progression of thought in their writing. Context is not just about historical context. Context should include where the author is in his letter. Why is he saying this now? Does the author mean that we should take this verse all by itself and form a doctrine from it?
That’s what Luther did, and that’s what a person currently posting comments is doing, so it seems.
The Bible isn’t something to play around with. It should be carefully and prayerfully read. And those who are called and gifted to interpret should — not prayed against and put in a corner.
It now seems likely that we’re going to see Revelation fulfilled in our lifetimes, maybe even fairly soon. This may be our last chance to get our act together. We need to all find our places in the body of Christ and run within our callings, not trying to be someone we’re not.
It’s time to love each other as much as we love ourselves. When things get really bad in these coming years, we better be ONE in Him or this will be a nightmare that many will not be able to endure.
We need to be ONE, now, today, real soon. “Then the world will know.”
John 17:
As for those who still “desire to be under the law”:
Galatians 4:
Please read what Paul says the way it was meant to be read, not jumping to conclusions before he reaches his conclusions.
May we get our doctrine right so we can be ONE in Christ.
Then the world will know — and we’ll be so happy (no matter what we have to go through)!
Jeff Fenske : )
Adrian
Greetings Jeff,
Now maybe we could get to the point at hand, Who goes to heaven! Maybe ( I feel ) A look at Adam and Eve ( as Adam named her ! ) Abraham and all of those before the law, As to how they were justified before GOD.
This is of particular importance because although not under the law for the law was not in the world, They indeed could sin and lose relationship and salvation. Clearly this shows we are to obey GOD’s commandments as is pointed out in The revelation to John that those who keep the testimony of Jesus and the commandments of GOD ( given through our Lord in the new covenant ) will inherit the kingdom.
I fail to see how anyone can belive you have lost relationship with GOD but still have salvation. This is clearly cited within the parable of the prodigal son, He had relationship and was alive whilst with his father, but upon leaving to pursue the pleasures of this life he was lost / dead.
Until conscience / pain caused him to repent ( change the way he thought and acted ) and return.
Upon which we see his father overjoyed to see him return and repent for his actions openly before his father. The clear statement in this parable “This brother of yours was dead but now is alive ( Has become alive ) is painfully clear to all but those who wish to live according to their own will but not GOD’s. This is a point clearly forgotten by mainstream Christianity we ARE to live according to GOD’S will, Because the person who live according to his flesh ( earthly will ) shall indeed die ( spiritually ) which results in deliverance to Hades / Gehenna the second death.
Now i feel as you have introduced yourself in some way so shall I.
I have no formal training in theology.
I was a JW from birth, A was freed because i would not accept what was wrong within the “Association” I openly stood against the false teachings and spoke to the body of elders concerning this, God proved to them through me that they stand in error. I disassociated myself, And praise GOD with the wisdom given me my family also left the JW’s.
Therefore you can see all i have is given by GOD.
I have studied Greek, Hebrew, Old english, Middle english, And other languages. I am still in the process of learning to fully engage in Hebrew conversation, Then i shall probably learn Latin – Its basically just a hobby – I like learning languages. My native tongues are English and Afrikaans ( grew up in Z.A ) although my Afrikaans is now a little rusty lol.
I am always willing to accept God’s word if it taught in truth and the points brought forward can be fully contextually backed by scripture.
May God BLESS you and again i apologize for any undue stress caused by the former conversation.
Jeff i feel it may be wise for you to choose a parable we could discuss or possible head through the parables and associated teachings one by one in order, This would create an orderly reading pattern for all wishin to search these teachings.
Jeff Fenske
Adrian,
I put up a post that’s at the top of the site right now, if you’d like to post a parable, and then we can take it from there, seeing how this works.
There is probably a lot that I can learn from Jesus’ parables, since they have never been a primary interest to me.
I also don’t have the gift of being able to learn languages easily as an adult. Apparently it’s pretty easy for everyone before age 6 or so.
I’ve taken some Greek, and at one point I knew enough to be able to use the helps, but haven’t kept up on it, as I haven’t really found Greek to be essential for what I do, as long as I use good, Textus Receptus based translations. The NIV is seriously misleading people in some very important doctrines. And some preachers are even using The Message as a Bible??? Yikes!
However, for awhile, many years ago, I found reading in The Discovery Bible helpful. I can’t find a good review/overview of The Discovery Bible http://www.amazon.com/Discovery-Bible-American-Standard-Testament/dp/0802441599 , and I have no idea why it didn’t become popular and is now out of print. The NASB isn’t the greatest translation, but the way it was laid out is so helpful, using different symbols and color coding to help non-Greek-reading people discover the ways in which the translations still aren’t translated correctly.
It seems that there could be a lot of work done regarding OSAS and verb tenses, etc.. It seems that many of the verb tenses are translated incorrectly, which adds to the the greatest deception still being the greatest deception. Dan Corner points out some of this at Evangelical Outreach http://www.evangelicaloutreach.org.
I don’t know if you’ve studied this, but apparently, certain words like “believe” are translated in a tense that indicates completion, when they should be in a continuous tense. I don’t know how big of a consequence this is, though. It’s probably big; though, I haven’t found it necessary to be able to prove what the Bible teaches about who goes to heaven.
On the other hand, no one has been able to refute my Who-Goes-To-Heaven post in the 2 years it’s been up, but I still don’t know of one church that has changed its doctrine so it would be Biblical.
Regarding Africa: I spent about 2 weeks driving on the left side of road in South Africa shortly after apartheid fell. I wanted to see the racial thing firsthand after seeing the movie, “Cry Freedom.” It was very interesting. I really liked the Cape of Good Hope, driving in Addo Elephant Park, seeing the Milky Way far better than I ever had, the penguins in Port Elizabeth, the food in Cape Town, but the black/white thing was still really sad.
If I thought we had a lot of years before things would get really bad, I’d scan some of my South Africa photos and put them up on my personal blog. In case you’re not aware of it: http://jefffenske.com, but I don’t think we have much time.
Thaks for your help and insight!
Freedom!
Jeff : )
bigritchie
Jeff I noticed you quoted Romans 7:6, but not
Romans 3:31 Do we make void the law because of Faith? God forbid! We establish the law.
I also noticed when you quoted Romans 7:6 that you failed to quote other places in Romans Chapter 7 such as:
Romans 7:12 “for the Law is holy, and the commandment is just and good!
Romans 7:22 For I delight in the law of God according to the Inward man
Romans 7:25 “I thank God through Messiah Yahshua, our Lord, SO then with the mind I serve the Torah of God, but with my flesh the law of sin.
Galatians Chapter 4 has nothing to do with keeping the Sabbaths or Feast. Paul himself is listed several times in Acts alone keeping the Feast and the day of Atonement. He is listed as his custom being to keep the Sabbath, and he keeps the Sabbaths with Gentiles for over 1 and 1/2 years in a row.
If Paul is saying what you think he is then he is a hypocrite and his books should be ripped from the Bibles. It is a FACT that the Sabbaths and Feast will be kept during the thousand year reign. Nations that do not Keep Sukkot will not receive rain for a year, this is a death sentence.
A quick read through Acts Chapter 14 shows exactly what was going on with the Galatians. It is a account of the City of Galatian people. What is going on here? These people are not Torah observant Jews they are former Pagans. They tried to make sacrifices to Shaul and Barnabas because they thought they were Jupiter/Zeus and Mercury/Hermes. These people had never been Torah observant Jews! They were pagan gentiles. The cities of Galatia are no where near Judea. It is not debatable, Paul kept the Feast as recorded by Acts, so why in the world would he attack those keeping the same Feast he was? HE WAS NOT, he was attacking them for observing pagan holidays!
The entire debate “But Paul says” is quite frankly invalid to begin with. If Yahshua of Nazareth is truly your Master and Lord, then we go by what he says, not what people teach Paul says. Yahshua of Nazareth made it 100% clear that his followers were to DO AND TEACH the LEAST of the TORAH! This is not even debatable. Quite frankly though I have found the majority of American christians could care less what the Messiah says.
Most western Gentiles have zero idea for instance that when Messiah was eating corn in the fields that he did not break the Torah, he broke cf. Jub. 2:19-20, see D.3 OF THE RABBINICAL HALAKHAH OF MINUTE CASUILTRY.
Quite frankly until a person understands Rabbinical Orthodox Judaism, which is the modern day version of the Pharisees and the fight going on between them and the Messiah, it is impossible to understand what was going on. They hated the Messiah because he refused to play religion with them, and would not bow down to their “oral Torah”.
Jeff I would humbly suggest if you get the time to read through some of the Oral Torah and read the very man made religious laws Yahshua was breaking. They literally had volumes of books that would fill a room that governed a mans life from the moment he woke up till the moment he went to bed. They taught if you broke God’s laws you would be forgiven, but if you broke their religious rules you would have no place in the afterlife! This crap was what Paul was talking about.
It seems Adrian has already woken up from the JW cult, and Jeff I can tell from your blog you see many of the false teachings going on in Mainstream Christianity.
I want to ask you both to do something for me. I would like for you to think about this.
#1 Why does christianity teach a false name for the Messiah, Jesus was not even in the original 1611 KJV. The oldest Greek text do not contain IESOUS.
#2 Why does christianity teach “Jesus” was born on December 25th when all pagan sun gods were born then? This is a total lie.
#3 Why does christianity teach “Jesus” arose on Easter Sun god worship day, Easter is the Babylonian Sex and fertility goddess!
I think if you will do some research you will find we are in the last days and the Great Deception is very well at hand. We have been presented with another Messiah, the church version, who is not the version found in the Gospels.
I spend alot of time ministering to people in the occult and to black magic Satanist. Wanna know what they teach?
“Satan came to free them from the mean God of the “Old” Testament and his laws, and the new law is Do what thou wilt” This might sound familiar a bit?
Anyways, good luck men, I have spoken my peace. I pray you will both search for the truth no matter what it is, and not let your religious beliefs get in the way.
Shalom.
Jeff Fenske
bigritchie,
I’ve never treated a visitor to my blog like this before, but I’ve thought about this for five days and I think it’s appropriate to do in this case. I don’t know if I’ll keep this comment up or not, but I believe that it’s good to at least post it long enough for you and some others to see it.
I may just take all of the posts down on this subject, again, something I’ve never done before. I usually just let things roll, but this is an important post for me and you’re totally off topic, taking up way too much space.
It is my opinion that you are wasting my time and others. You said, yourself that you don’t believe that following the law or not following it is a salvation issue. Then why are pushing your ideas about the law so hard on this post?
It is clear to me you are demon driven, and I believe what you are pushing is a doctrine of demons.
I wouldn’t say this so directly if we knew who you are. But all we really know is that your first name is probably Ritchie and that you are probably big, if not in stature at least in attitude to the point of putting ‘big’ in your internet name. And you’ve left your big footprint on this post; though, what you say has nothing to do with it.
This is how false doctrines work, doctrines of demons. Demons put ideas in a person who is open to deception. Then the demons empower that person with emotional power and ideas so they pray (James-3 curse) those ideas onto others, often with words. Then the recipients of these demons and ideas then push the ideas on others. This happens with OSAS, tithing, the doctrine that demons can’t be in Christians (demons really like that one), the old covenant law still needs to be observed, etc..
And demons won’t take ‘no’ for an answer, nor do they like to let the person relax enough to be open to another opinion.
And much of this happens in the heart, and the Bible basically says that few really know their own heart. And this is especially true when demons are prime occupiers, pushing these doctrines on others.
Regarding what you said above:
You posted three questions that are also totally off topic. You say that Galatians isn’t about still observing the law, when it clearly is. And you’re still trying to push the latter part of Romans 7 to support your claim. Paul was clearly talking about his pre-born-again days when he was trying to follow the law. I would find where I clearly explain this, but you’d probably go there and push more of your false doctrine on readers.
And there is nothing in Acts that says Paul went to the synagogues in order to fulfill his Torah obligation. He went there to convince the Jews about the Messiah.
I have never spammed anyone on this site, unless it was regular internet spam. But I will spam you if I have to.
I’m not interested in your we-need-to-still-be-under-the-law perspective. The church will never be ONE that way. I’m interested in how we can all be in Christ, together, dead to sin, alive in God — ONE.
What you are pushing is death to revival and real Christianity. I’m not interested. I don’t see any biblical support for this false doctrine that is leading so many people astray.
“Check your heart.” Please? What’s going on in your heart? Are you relaxed?
Jeff Fenske
Deb
I am not sure about all the things not agreed upon here, but my story is not a “normal” one to say the least. One response I can say is that the Lord has absolutely “spoken” per say to me to keep the sabbath on Saturday…not the Sunday as most all Christians/churches teach today. I go to church when I want on Sunday but treat the Sabbath day of Saturday not buying/selling, but worshiping and resting and seeking God. Also, we are in the last days…here is my story.
This is my only explanation I have for how the Holy Spirit is working in me. You will understand what I mean after you read my story below.
John 7:38: He that believeth on me, as the scripture hath said, out of his belly shall flow rivers of living waters.
MY STORY:
24 years ago when my son was 7 years, I was called into his school and told they believed he was sexually molested and he portrayed all of the signs of a sexually abused child. I myself had been aware of how he was acting and saying things I did not think normal but at 28 years old honestly I was naïve about thinking adults doing things to children. I could not fathom who did it but had one suspicion at that time and it was his stepfather whom I was married to at the time. He was a little unusual and I had begun to think he had homosexual tendencies (although this does not make one a child molester). I just could not imagine who did anything to my son. He never went to babysitters as I never went “out” so he was always with me, his stepfather and of course his daily sitter while we worked that had kept him from age 2 to age 7 when I found out. His sitter he had for all those years was my neighbor and she was also my Sunday school teacher and I gave my life to the Lord in her home. Her husband was church treasurer and sometimes helped with the daycare as he seemed to always be in between jobs. I actually trusted them more than my own family. Well…needless to say, my son’s behavior got so out of control he had to be institutionalized for 3 months at Vanderbilt Children’s Psychiatric Hospital in Nashville. They of course did all the normal “play therapy” but to no avail. In the meantime my husband and I separated and my son and I moved to an apartment. His behavior got worse…he began to also curse the name of Jesus. I had him prayed for, prayed over and everything you can imagine. Once a person came to my apartment and told me that there was a demon of homosexuality after my son. I was not aware back then that people really could discern spirits but I never doubted what he told me. My husband and I did get back together and we moved back home but divorced a year later. At that time, my son at 9 years old tried to commit suicide by taking an overdose of the medication he was on. He was again put in an institution and stayed in patient for 3 more months and then went in the day for 6 more months to their day program. They abused him physically I found out and of course I immediately took him out of the program. During this time they tried to get him to talk about his abuse and he adamantly refused. Period. During this last hospital stay, some other children that were 4 years of age…2 others to be exact, went home from the same day care my son went to all those years and told things that had been done to them that were sexually inappropriate to say the least. We ALL went to the same church. We ALL trusted this daycare provider of course as they were leaders in our church. I was shocked to say the least. I confronted them and asked the wife could her husband possibly have been the one to do something to my child as she had shared with me during our friendship that he had been sexually abused by his father when he was growing up. I was devastated and told them I needed answers. Well…she hung up on me as I had called her on the phone and we NEVER spoke again. They changed churches and I was going through so much trying to get my son help and he never would tell who did what to him so I had no legal recourse against them. He did tell me the day before this suicide attempt at 9 years old that he had to give an adult a “blow job” and adamantly refused to tell me who. He then tried to kill himself by taking an overdose. They eventually closed down their daycare I had heard and that was like I said 24 years ago. My son tried to commit suicide again at 14 and again at 21 years of age. To say the least I have struggled to keep my faith that God would one day take care of this but I NEVER gave up. I kept the faith of a mustard seed most days and some days occasionally a mountain although it was hard.
Fast forward to Good Friday of 2011. On this day my son beat his 6 year old little boy and left many many marks on his entire back. (He had rarely ever spanked him though before this). I was devastated for the poor child and knew the anger from my son’s sexual abuse was coming to a head. Up till this time my son had become a drug addict, alcoholic and verbally and physically abused his wife. He threatened to burn the house down with her in it on numerous occasions. I did what I should have done and that was I called the Department of Human Services. Life has not been the same since. I was so devastated I told God that 24 years had passed and I needed to know who did what to my son as it was literally killing us all. My son over all these last years’ refused to talk about any of it much less admit he had a problem. I got on my knees and told the Lord that I would seek Him like I had never in my life and would study His word for the truth as I said in my spirit I sensed he was returning soon and I was afraid that my son would to go hell since he cursed the name of Jesus. He used to tell me that there was not a God or all that happened to him surely could not have happened. The Lord told me in my spirit “seek My face and I will fix your problems”…so I got on the internet and got my bible and I typed in the words” God I want to know the truth” and started studying. I told him I needed the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth.
As I studied of course my main interest/focus was on the book of Revelation/Daniel and every scripture involved it led me to. I began to read and read and read and read. For hours every night…doing exactly what I told the Lord I would do and He said He would fix my problems. Well…as I began to read different interpretations of scripture I began to get confused on “who” had it right so I just kept studying. God says to ask the Holy Spirit to teach us and even to discern the truth if what pastors teach us as well is his truth. We ARE NOT TO TAKE YOUR WORD OR ANYONE ELSES WORD…we are to study ourselves. About 4-5 weeks into my diligent seeking, I was so confused one day and in my mind thought “is it this way or is it this way”…and as I would think of each direction I started feeling little flutters in my belly. At first I was like…”what is that”…is that you God? Well…I kept studying, seeking, praying and repenting of my sins (God was really cleansing my soul). As I studied over the next week or so He would move in my belly directing me which way to go as far as the last week of Daniel. As you know there are many views out there…and about pre trib, post trib, etc. After a few weeks of this I was truly amazed and still not quite sure what was happening. I went for a ride with my husband one day although I told him I really want to sit at my desk and study and as we were riding I was thinking about everything I had read and to myself asking…ok, is it this way or that way…and God started moving in my belly answering me when I was thinking in the direction He wanted me to go/study. I chuckled to myself and thought to God…Lord, Jack (my husband) will think I am nuts when I tell him you are moving in my belly…and I literally FELT the Lord chuckle back!
Ok, so over all of last summer I literally repented of sins, ask God’s forgiveness, rejoiced in all that He was doing. As I went through this I would be just thinking certain thoughts in my mind on who did what to my son many years ago and realized that the Lord was ready to give me the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth just as I had prayed for. He revealed as I asked questions by literally moving in my belly (to yes and no answers) that my son was abused by his Stepfather AND the babysitters husband. He revealed to me my father was sexually abused (in comes generational sins). I too had done things with my brother at a very young age from about 5-10 years old that were not of God and only of satan and although I had gone to my brother about 5 years ago and talked to him about my memories and had done a lot of healing from this already ….it was one more generation of perversion satan had managed to get his foot in the door…and carried the sexual sin another generation with my son. I did know that since I had gone to my brother that I had broken the chain and prayed the Lord would help me break it with my son and what happened to him.
My current husband had some issues that had affected our marriage and had for about 10 years as well but denied it. Well…the Lord revealed to me all that was taking place with him. He actually told me to tell my husband that what he was doing was “detestable” to him and he needed to denounce it. I went to him and gave him the message from the Lord and he of course denied it. I kept studying, seeking, praying and God kept revealing things to me. He revealed to me in advance when my husband would get phone calls from 2 specific people that they were involved in the same sin…when the phone would ring He would literally move in my belly and I would ask..Lord do they have the same problem…and He moved and moved (weird but true) I kept seeking. He told me again a few weeks later to tell my husband what he was doing was “detestable” and to denounce it. I told him again. He again tried to deny it. I said…I am telling you what God told me to tell you…Well, things started getting evil in my house. Literally one night the Holy Spirit vibrated my stomach so hard it felt like a chainsaw inside! LOLOL!! Again, weird but true, warning me of the evil of something going on with my husband. I prayed for safety, and as I would look in my husband eyes they looked weird, different and evil. That was how I can explain it. Also, I told my son what the Lord revealed to me about his father molesting him. He did not deny or admit it. He said “I don’t understand how God can tell you in your belly”…and I am going to leave the past in the past….”Dad has enough problems with his health right now”…and I don’t remember much but I am moving forward. I told him, David you cannot move forward unless you deal with this. Jesus can help you if you will let him. Now…understand after I called the dept. of human services on him for beating his child he told me I was right, he was wrong and he was going to do everything in his life differently. Well…as I prayed and sought the Lord as I promised, God worked on his end of the deal as I began to sense a change in my sons spirit like you would not believe even before I told him about knowing his father did this. Now…my daughter- in-law thought I had gone off the deep end. I had told her that I felt like shooting my son’s father and she took it literal and told my son…Your mom is going to shoot your dad…they called and told him what was going on. He called me and said “so God told you I molested David”…and I said YEP, he did. He started crying and all he could say was “what about all the good things I did for him”…I told him he needed to repent of what he did to David to God and to his own son for what he did. He was crying so hard…then he hung up on me. That was last September. Now, what this truth the Lord has shown me did was to let my son know…”yes, there is a God” as he did not believe it or the evil/perversion surely would not have happened to him…therefore it was keeping him from believing in Jesus Christ…just what satan would have wanted and David would never give his life to the Lord. So, since my son knew he had never told a sole that his father had molested him, he had to know that the Lord is truly real! Jesus Christ won this battle…
Then….God said it was time to separate from my husband…the evil was getting worse and I could sense danger (although he was far from a dangerous person).I left him. He begged me not to but I did. The day after I left he got on his knees and prayed for me to come back. He realized after a day that he was praying for the wrong thing and the next day he got on his knees and prayed for God to cleanse him of this sin in his life ( the sin he adamantly denied to me) and to forgive him. Well…he told me the Holy Spirit literally vibrated his entire body from top to bottom and he felt the demons leave him. I then understood the “look” in his eyes and the evil presence I felt and that God warned me of the last few weeks I was home. We have now reconciled with the help of solid Christian counseling.
But…these months I kept praying, studying, seeking just like I promised God. Never gave up! And…He started showing me many more truths than I ever could imagine. He moves in my belly and lets me know when I am in the presence of evil spirits….in public places, when my husband and I are around each other and they are trying to attack him, he has a son that is very far from God and every time I am around him God warns me of the evil, He warned me when my car was getting ready to break down, He warned/warns me when I make a wrong turn on the highway ( sometimes it takes me a few minutes to realize why He is moving In my stomach but I eventually do). He lets me know when I have taken my grandson to a movie the songs they play that are not of God. At the skating rink when I take my grandson, He tells me when a song is playing that He does not approve of…all by moving in my stomach. The list goes on and on. He also though still continues to move in my belly when I am studying truths. (the feelings/movements are different for evil vs good/truth).
Well…this all lead up to my contemplating that I did not think that satan would want us to know about when the covenant that most people think has to happen still was signed and God gave me this dream:
The Lord woke me in the middle of the night on March 5th as I was dreaming about the 70th week of Daniel. When I woke, I immediately remembered that God told me we are IN THE FINAL YEARS NOW…to not be looking for any covenant. I ask him “Lord did you wake me so I would remember this dream and he moved in my stomach to FIRMLY and positively tell me YES I DID. I then went back to sleep and dreamed the Lord telling me that I needed to be looking for the abomination of desolation next. He then woke me VERY FIRMLY again by moving in my stomach and I asked him again “Lord did you wake me again so I would remember this dream” and in no uncertain terms he said by moving and moving in me YES I DID. The next morning I woke and prayed and sought the Lord and in amazement asked him to please clarify that it was him waking me and telling me what he did and he absolutely moved in me like he does when he wants to GET MY ATTENTION. Yes, I did wake you and this is what I wanted you to remember.
So..I am shouting the news. Our Lords return is soon. I have come to the conclusion that his church will be taken at the 6th seal. I do not KNOW that for a fact but from my studying this is the conclusion I have come to thus far. I did not believe in pretribulation rapture even before the dream as most do. We will have to endure much of what is to come. I am preparing.
I feel so grateful for the truths He has shown me. I am cleansed from the inside out and feel blessed to be able to worship Him so freely. I guess when I asked for the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth he honored my request as I honored my commitment to Him by diligently seeking Him as I promised. As I said, some of the truths are personal and some are not. I believe that the Lord gave me the truths about these final days because I am bold enough to speak it unlike most pastors of today as most are not even studying or paying attention that we are living in the last days as we know it.
In all my studying, I also learned what scripture meant when God says the following:
Matthew 7:13-14: Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat: because strait is the gate and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.
Matthew 721-23: Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven: but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven. Many will say to me in that day Lord, Lord, have not we prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? And in thy name done many wonderful WORKS? And then will I profess unto them, I NEVER KNEW you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.
John 14:15: If ye love me, keep my commandments. And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter that he may abide with you for ever.
I believe he means all 10 commandments.
John 14:21: He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me: and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest thyself unto us, and not unto the world?
I realized I was NOT GOING THROUGH THOSE GATES…Although I “believed” in Jesus Christ..I realized that even satan “believed” in Jesus. The Lord expects it to be a much deeper relationship than just believing. He says ….keep my commandments. I was not doing that and the Holy Spirit speaks to my heart daily…on keeping all of Gods ten commandments.
I was in the church specifically talks about in:
Revelation 3:14 “The lukewarm church”
These things saith the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of the creation of God; I know thy WORKS, that thou art neither cold nor hot: I would thou wert cold or hot. So then because thou art lukewarm, and neither cold nor hot, I will SPUE THEE OUT OF MY MOUTH. Because thou sayest, I am rich, and increased with goods, and have need of nothing: and knowest not that thou art wretched, and miserable, and poor, and blind, and naked. I counsel thee to buy of me gold tried in the fire, that thou mayest be rich, and white raiment, that thou mayest be clothed, and that the shame of thy nakedness do not appear; and anoint thine eyes with eye salve, that thou mayest see. As many as I love, I rebuke and chasten: be zealous therefore, and repent. Behold, I stand at the door, and knock: if any man hear my voice, and open the door, I will come to him, and will sup with him, and he with me. To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down with my Father in his throne. He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches.
So…I can say today, I know without a shadow of doubt, I will “sup” with the Lord. He is the Lord of my life, my Master, my Redeemer, my Friend, my Counselor, my ALL. Up until one year ago, although I “believed” in Jesus I would have been spued out of his mouth.
Now, it seems to me this will be happening soon as family is already turning against family. I have been shunned by many of my family members since I have told them this story… 4 of my siblings, my daughter in law and some nieces. They literally have told me I am satan.
Matthew 10:21-22: And the brother shall deliver up brother to death, and the father the child: and the children rise up against their parents, and cause them to be put to death. And ye shall be hated of all men for my names sake: but he that endureth to the end shall be saved.
I will endure to the end. No words man can say against me (even saying I am satan or filled with satan) will ever make me turn my back on Jesus Christ. I choose Jesus. To the end.
James 1:2-4 My brethren, count it all joy when ye fall into divers temptations; knowing this, that the trying of your faith worketh patience. But let patience have her perfect work, that ye may be perfect and entire, wanting nothing.
James 1:12: Blesses is the man that endureth temptation: for when he is tried, he shall receive the crown of life, which the Lord hath promised to then that love him.
Only in Jesus Christ name I write this…
Debbie
bigritchie
You think doing and teaching the least of the law, which is a direct commandment from the Messiah as listed in Matthew Chapter 5, is a doctrine of demons?
You think I am demon possessed because I obey the Messiah? So If I stop and help my enemy pull his cart out of the ditch I am demon possessed?
I am curious sir, Paul said in Romans 3:31 to establish the law, do you think Paul was demon Possessed also?
What about John? John said we know we are saved if we keep the Law, and that if we do not we are liars? Do you think John was demon possessed too?
When Paul called the Anti-Messiah the Torahless one, was he just having a demon possessed moment also? What about when Paul spoke of the Nystery of Iniquity? Iniquity being without Torah in the Greek, was he also having a demonically influenced day?
And why would you take the post down? Do you honesty feel that burning need to censor anyone you do not agree with? And spam filter me? Wow! Maybe you could put a disclaimer up on your post that anyone who does not agree with your particular religious denomination will be spam filtered. Jeff it utterly blows my mind that you have a blog that attacks various teachings of the church, yet you threaten to delete and then ban someone who does not agree with another teaching of the American churches. Pot meet kettle.
Obedience is never legalism Jeff, and I pray you will repent of calling the Master’s words the doctrine of demons before judgment falls upon your head.
O Yea and Jeff, the word “church” never even occurs in the Bible. The word Church comes from the root word Circe. Circe was a greek goddess who would trick men into drinking out of her cup, and when they drank out of her cup she turned them into swine.
Jeff Fenske
Bigritchie,
I didn’t say you were demon possessed. In this day and age in which hate and anger is off the charts, almost everyone has demons affecting them directly. Yours are just particularly powerful, to the degree that I’m considering the spamming option, something which I told you I’ve never done on this site.
This post is my baby. I’ve spent much of my life trying to figure out the salvation issue. I’ve studied it from multiple angles. And you’ve filled this post with an argument that we should follow the old covenant law that you say isn’t even a salvation issue.
You are totally off topic, and your verbage is so massive that I just have to draw a line somewhere. Maybe someday you’ll understand. I’ll be praying *FOR* you.
If you’re wondering how I know for sure what’s going on with you and the religious spirits you are sending our way, this is how I know: http://onecanhappen.com/2009/11/22/also-ive-finally-shared-much-of-what-i-know-about-the-tremendous-and-mostly-misunderstood-and-underused-gift-of-tongues-another-reader-thankfully-put-me-over-the-edge
Jeff
Adrian
Hi Ritchie,
I have a question for you, its a pretty simple one really . Does GOD in the old testament approve of people who dont have the law and would he save such people in any way ?
This is a genuine question so please dont for any reason feel offended and this actually ties in with salvation so is suitable to the post.
Adrian
bigritchie
I would assume you mean for instance, say a person living in North America at the time when the Torah was written down for Moses?
Not sure I understand your question. If you mean the above this is my answer.
If that is what you do mean, Are you aware that Israel was to be priest to the entire world to make the Creator’s name and Instructions known all over the world? Are you aware that ancient stones have been found in North America and other parts of the world written in Paleo Hebrew with the Father’s name and the 10 commandments on it?
Are you aware that for instance Jonah was sent to Nineveh a gentile city? Nineveh was a city set up in honor of Nimrod and was full of pagan sun god worship and Dagon the fish god worship.
In think the majority of the gentile nations knew for instance that murdering is wrong. They knew that stealing is wrong, they knew adultery was wrong and practiced it anyway.
The Creator’s Instructions for living always existed, they were just written down for Moshe and for Israel, because they were to be the path that lead people to the true Messiah, and out of pagan sun god worship.
In fact Abraham is quite simply a Gentile, who had faith in the Creator, and BECAUSE HE HAD FAITH, HE OBEYED the Creator, and left his pagan sun god worship behind, crossing over the river and becoming the first Hebrew. Hebrew in fact means to cross over.
Israel got “saved” when the Creator saved them from bondage in Egypt and the pagan sun god worship there. He baptized them in the red sea. Then he asked “Will you keep my commandments” Faith without the works of obedience is dead. If you truly believe Yahushua is the Messiah, and you understand the Torah, that not only is he the Messiah, but he is also the prophet that we must listen to, or we fall into the wrath of Elohim, then you will OBEY the Messiah.
Messiah commanded his followers to do and teach the least of the Torah. He did this guys, not me. I am just the messenger. He told us from the very start he had not come to do away with the Torah and Prophets, and warned that those who do not do the least of the Torah, and those that teach men not to keep the Least of the Torah, will be least in the kingdom.
If someone teaches the exact opposite of the Messiah, then common sense would dictate that they are against the Messiah, and against His teachings.
bigritchie
Jeff, you said and I quote
“It is clear to me you are demon driven, and I believe what you are pushing is a doctrine of demons.”
I have never said one thing on this board that I have not backed up with the scriptures. (In fact I posted hundreds upon hundreds of scriptures to prove what I was saying and you deleted the entire post)
Messiah teaches in Matthew chapter 5 and orders his followers to do and teach the least of the law. NOT ME.
You say that I am driven by demons, and what I say is the doctrine of demons, when quite simply I have quoted the Messiah and the Renewed Covenant.
If you believe that Doing and teaching the least of the Torah, is the doctrine of demons, then you should take it up with the Messiah, because HE SAYS IT, NOT ME.
Paul says “Do we make the law void because of Faith? God forbid, we ESTABLISH THE LAW” NOT ME
John says “We know we are saved if we keep the commandments, if not we are liars” NOT ME.
You keep saying this has nothing to do with the subject matter, but it does in fact have everything to do with the subject matter. There is no prayer a prayer and punch your ticket to heaven, and you already know this.
Yahushua takes us to the future on judgment day and says “Depart from me you workers of Lawlessness” ANOMIA, A without, Nomia meaning Torah. Same words used hundreds of times in the Greek “Old Testament” he even tells us of a large group of people that call him Lord, that do many works in his name, that even cast out demons, yet these people do not obey him or his Father! Lets see, what group on planet earth calls “Jesus” lord, but teaches obeying God and the Messiah is legalism? What group on earth in direct opposition to the Messiah teaches the law is abolished? What group on earth in direct opposition to the Messiah teaches us not to do and teach the least of the Torah? What group on earth never quotes the very prophecy for the “New Testament” is that the Torah would be written upon our heats and not tablets of stone? The Torah is not what changes, our heart is what changes.
Jeff it can be proven without a doubt that the Sabbaths, Feast, New Moons will be kept during the 1,000 year reign of the Messiah. So why does mainstream christianity, in direct opposition to what the Messiah taught in Matthew chapter 5-7, and the other gospels, teach these things are burdensome? Why does mainstream christianity teach that it is ok to keep “Easter”, the Babylonian sex and fertility goddess’s birthday, but yet it is bad keeping the Feast of YHWH?
When it boils down to it, it is undeniable that the Messiah taught that his followers were to DO AND TEACH THE LEAST of the Torah! He is the master, not us. If he is the master, then we obey him.
And this my friend is why mainstream christianity teaches a false name, and tells you this “Jesus” person abolished the law. The letter J does not exist in Hebrew, Greek, Aramaic, Paleo Hebrew, Koine Greek. “Jesus” did not even occur in the 1611 KJV of the Bible!
So Jeff, let me ask you, Yahushua taught his followers to do and teach the least of the Torah, is Yahushua the Messiah correct, or are you correct Jeff? Both of you cannot be correct. Yahushua said you are either with him or against him. You either uphold his teaching to do and teach the least of the Torah, or you are against him.
I am not saying these things to be mean or argumentative. I am telling you the truth.
James the brother of the Messiah stated “Look at all these followers of the Messiah, that are zealous for the Torah”. Jeff, is Yaakov the brother of Messiah correct, or is our religious systems?
Shalom
Adrian
Ritchie,
Very sorry to have to ask this again but as in all your posts you refuse to directly answer the question, Were the people in Ninevah/eh approved of by GOD?
Was Abraham and when
Was Job ?
Was Rahab ?
Law or faith please answer it straight – faith or law then give an explanation after, just so we can establish it. And i am not defending Jeff or anyone else with this point. But you have not backed up any of your points with scripture unless it has been taken out of context and when you are backed into a corner you attack people for their beliefs, This is very much what happened to me when i disassociated with the witnesses and is a classic ploy of sects / cults.
Also a question i asked previously , In which biblical languages are you fully trained. There is also such a thing as coincidence, For instance if i was born on the same day as aliester crowley does that make me a satanist ? you are reading things into every situation things that arent there. Again much in the same way as JW’s as stupid as this may sound you cannot own a smurf because they are satanic and evil.
Stupid laws and rules for things all destined to perish. For surely we know there is ONE GOD and HE is jealous.
Does a person recieve the Holy Spirit by law or by hearing with faith ? again please answer straight.
Paul spent his whole life pursuing the law and ancestral traditions, But Jesus ( Yahshua ) as you would incorrectly call HIM changed Pauls whole way of thinking. Men for many years said the world was flat refusing to listen to others. Sometimes what we believe is true is not, Humility is needed you have never ever approved one point anyone has said. Jeff had no need to move your posts because anyone reading them would see you took scripture out of context, never answered questions directly and then presumed to insult people of insulting you, again never answering the questions.
If i being a gentile, Do the things of the law without having the law I show the works of the law written in my heart – True or Not.
Adrian
bigritchie
Going to go through and answer your questions as I understand them, so the post may skip around some, but I hope it is clear. English is not my best language.
People have always been “saved” by faith which is then demonstrated by their obedience.
And once again it is not a debate of Law vs Faith, or Law VS Grace, the debate is law vs Lawlessness.
You think of belief and faith with a Greek/Roman mindset and not a Hebrew Mindset. Because Abraham had “Faith” he OBEYED. Where no obedience exist, no true faith exist.
Have you not read where Yaakov the brother of the Messiah said and I paraphrase “You believe in God and the Messiah? WHOOPTY DO! The devil and the fallen angels also believe and tremble” The difference is a person who has “Faith” in the Hebrew mindset, OBEYS, while the person who has faith in the western mindset just believes.
You said “If i being a gentile, Do the things of the law without having the law I show the works of the law written in my heart – True or Not.”
Well yes true. And you also prove my point. You are keeping the Torah whether you realize it or not for the most part (You naughty legalist lol)
Paul spent his life learning Rabbinical Pharisaism! This is NOT THE TORAH. I would suggest you click on my name and read the post on my front page which explains in detail what the Pharisee religious system taught. The Pharisee religious system was NOT the HEBREW RELIGION. It would be akin to comparing Mormonism with Protestants, or akin to comparing Protestants with Catholicism.
A person receives the Ruach Hakodesh (Which means Set-Apart) by faith. If you have true faith, then you keep the Creator’s commandments. There is not faith in the Hebraic sense without Obedience! 1 John makes it clear we know if we are saved “If we keep the commandments, if we don’t we are liars and we are not saved” Shaul wrote that with his inner man via the Ruach Hakodesh he delighted in the Torah, but with his flesh he served the law of sin. The law of sin is not the Torah!
No the people of Ninevah were not approved of Elohim, hence why he sent Jonah the Prophet there. They may have “believed” in the Creator, but they sure were not living according to his Instructions.
By the way “Law” in itself is not a very good translation of Torah. When you hear “Law” people think of courts and blue lights and sirens and policemen writing tickets. Torah means instructions. For example AstroNOMY means Star Instructions. it does not mean “Star Law”
As for the birthdate, Yahushua the Messiah was NOT born on December 25th. Virtually every scholar in christianity now agrees with this. he was born during the Feast of Sukkot which always occurs on your pagan calender of September or October.
As for the languages I speak? Honestly what does it matter? The truth is the truth regardless. I can read several languages. I have no desire to brag that I can read this or that, or to make people think they can only understand the Scriptures if they know Paleo Hebrew or Pictograph Hebrew. It sure helps though. Anyone can come to the truth through the English versions of Scripture with study aids and learning some culture. I enjoy the Torah in Paleo Hebrew and the Renewed Covenant in Aramaic, you do not loose as much of the meaning. But once again, it really does not matter, except for internet epeen arguments.
Also I am not involved in any “Cults” I do not even attend “Churches” any longer.
And yes I have backed up everything I have said with scripture, IT WAS DELETED, and out of respect for Jeff, I am not going to post it again. I might suggest you go read Matthew Chapter 5 through 7 several times, once again the Messiah says “Do and teach the least of the Torah” not me. So if you have a problem with this statement you need to take it up with him.
Anyways friends, my goal was not to annoy Jeff until he bans me, so I am going to leave off here. Thanks for your time, and I hope that we are all lead into ultimate truth (even if that means changing a few religious views)
I will leave you with the advice Shimon Keffa gave in 2 Keffa 3. Never take Shaul’s writings as a excuse for lawlessness, it will destroy you.
Shalom Lekha veasem eleykha panav YHWH yisa.
May YahuWaH lift up his face to you and give you peace.
Adrian
A small lesson on translation and transliteration is necessary as you accuse us of a false name for the Messiah
1 ) Yod / Ye becomes Ih – Iota “ye or eeay” in Attic or Koine dialects
2 ) v shin – sh becomes s sigma – “s” as there is no “sh” sound in Greek
3 ) w vav – u becomes ou omicron-upsilon – “oo”
4 ) There is then a final sigma needed at the end of the name to show it is masculine
5) Finally the Ayin sound cannot be entered into the word as the Greek grammatical rules command it be dropped.
Also the same name is used in the book of Joshua ( in the title ) Iesous which clearly shows us that this name is not of pagan origin.Therefore this shows that the name IESOUS is infact a name transliterated by JEWISH translators.
Furthermore IESOUS is also the Greek transliteration of YEHOSHUA this is demonstrated in the septuagint.
Now study the old english from which the middle english translations were taken, Iesous was translated Iesus which is very close to the Yesus 9 close to Yeshua ) as the J was not so pronounced Eventually with time the J became pronounced more firmly Hence Iesous / Iesus / Jesus.
This clearly proves the name Jesus is a firmly translated name presented by JEWISH translators.
Add to this that the name Joshua somtimes appears in the form Yeshua ( See Nehemiah 8:17 )
Hebrew – Yehoshua : Hebrew – YESHUA
Hebrew – Yeshua : Greek Yesous
Greek Yesous : English – Jesus
There is no “sh” sound in Greek, which accounts for the middle “s” sound in Yesous. The “s” at the end of the Greek name is a grammatical necessity, to make the word declinable.
In Nehemiah 8:17, Joshua’s name is 100% identical to the name which today’s Messianic Jews use for Messiah, Yeshua… Strong’s concordance confirms this pronunciation, furthermore there were ten Israelites in the Bible who bore this name (#3442). Therefore the shortening of Yehoshua to Yeshua predates the Christian era by at least 500 years, and cannot be the result of a Jewish conspiracy to hide the Savior’s true name. To claim that the shortened form Yeshua is the result of a Jewish conspiracy is to ignore the facts of history and the facts of the Hebrew Scriptures. The form Yeshua existed for several hundred years before the Messiah was even born. Even in the pre-Christian Septuagint we see the Greek form… (Yesous) in the title of the Book of Joshua. (This is also proof that Yesous has no connection to the pagan god Zeus.
Adrian
bigritchie
Then why not call him IESOUS rather then “Jesus” Adrian. IESOUS is not pronounced the same as “Jesus” You do understand that right? Lets use common sense here. IESOUS is not Jesus!
Furthermore the Oldest complete Greek manuscripts DO not contain IESOUS!
The oldest Greek text simply have IY.
Adrian
We are not and never were told to become Hebrews!!
The languages you speak are actually very important for the posts you put here, As anyone can make the word of GOD say ANYTHING! with a lexicon and a few word twists.
I am religious i admit it – I religiously do good and follow GOD. I am not a legalist i obey the commandments because they are written within me and not because anyone ever quoted them to me.
The comments Jeff deleted contained no proof , do you not think that myself and Jeff being GOD fearing would have be amazed at the evidence you provided and changed accordingly ? And then rejoiced at the truth. Have we not said to you many many times we detest sin ! Because we have received of HIS Spirit we know sin and refuse to allow it to rule us.
I can tell now that this will never lead anywhere and i hope you have kept EVERY single point of the law or when you are judged you will be judged out of it and lets face the truth, How can you being a man ever live up to the law, how can any of us. It is either law or Grace Ritchie the old wine cannot mix with the new. But you having tasted of the old have no interest in the new wine.
I fear for you and this conversation must cease as you are a blind leader of the blind.
Adrian ( Please dont bother to comment as i wont read your “under the law” post anymore.
May GOD judge between us
bigritchie
Adrian you are more then welcome to believe as you wish.
The entire argument of transliterating the name through multiple languages is stupid to begin with when there is no need to. I also find it very weird that you admit that the Messiah’s name should be “Joshua” in English. (hint there was No J until a few hundred years ago, none of the languages of the Scriptures had a “J” and to this day in much of Europe it is pronounced with a Y) I would ask then why you do not call him “Joshua” or Yahshua rather then “Jesus”. I do thank you for pointing out that his name would be Joshua and not Jesus though, at least that is a start. But once again the entire argument is stupid, because the Messiah did not have a English name. You do understand he was not born in England or America right? Although England did have their druidic sun god named Gesus also known as Hesus, who was born on December 25th.
I suggest you study the Dead Sea scrolls and the differences between them and the Masoretic text. Hebrew had no vowels or vowel pointers. They placed these on the names so when anyone read them, they would not say the Fathers name aloud.
If you are interested in learning the true name, I might suggest watching this person’s videos. He does it in English much better then I can explain. He also goes through the Paleo Hebrew.
http://www.youtube.com/user/messengerofthename#p/c/D1280A375C192173
Anyways guys, this is my last post on here, Like I said, my job is to present the truth, not drive Jeff insane.
Shalom
Adrian
If only you paid attention to what you read. Anyway as you said before we drive Jeff mad i will leave you to your devices. BTW As you know Hebrew has no vowels but you have presumed the vowels in His name and the Father’s so you stand as guilty as us !.
Dave
Jeff,
Could you clarify this for me … if I lust after a girl, am I lost the instant that the lust starts? Does the Lord instantly remove my name from the Book of Life when I start to lust? If this is the case, I’m in a revolving door of sin, losing my salvation, realizing what’s happened, repenting and then being born again (again). I’m really afraid that the door will get stuck between losing my salvation and being born again (again) at my death or at the rapture. I wonder if it’s worth seeking after the Lord if he’s only waiting to blot out my name at every infraction. I would hate to work so hard to live a sinless life, meeting every requirement in the Scriptures you listed in this post, but only to discover at the Judgement that I’ve left some hidden sin deep in my heart that I was unaware of, the very sin that bans me from the Kingdom when the Lord says “Depart from Me, you worthless servant”.
God Bless,
Dave
Jeff Fenske
Dave,
I appreciate your comment, and it may be probable that a large percentage of ‘Christians’ are in this very situation. I’d like to start if in possibly a different direction than what you are expecting, and then I’ll get to more of the specifics after that. I’d like to defend God a bit….
God gave us certain doctrines and tools that most of the church is ignoring, and I believe this is the main reason it’s so hard to be an overcoming Christian today. It’s not that God’s requirements are too high of a standard. Our doctrine has put us into this pit into which the standard now seems so high. I’d like to share this first.
You talk about Jesus being ready to blot out your name after each willful sin, when the reality is Jesus wants SO MUCH for all Christians not to pollute themselves and disrespect other human beings who are created in God’s image.
And the reality is that Jesus’ heart is grieved. http://onecanhappen.com/2008/01/07/jesus-heart-cry-let-us-be-one. He is so sad because most of His people are far from Him. He wants so much for us to overcome and find life in Him.
There is nothing wrong with the desire to be fulfilled, even ‘high,’ but what do we get high on? Paul said: “don’t be drunk with wine but be filled with the Holy Spirit.”
Have you ever felt God’s presence, and perhaps even powerfully? Most churches are so spiritually dead today that God doesn’t tangibly show up during even the worship part of the service.
I love worshiping with others to God through music. But if the worshipers aren’t right with God and each other the worship is mostly not worship. First, we’re supposed to get reconciled to our brother and then we can lift our hands in real worship.
And the worship leaders, themselves are often not even worshiping. They’re just going through the motions. And could it be that the leaders allow this because to allow a real worship leader to lead might be uncomfortable to those who aren’t right with people and God, which is often includes themselves.
What I’m saying is that though you are responsible for your actions, what you are going through is not all your fault. Pastors quote Hebrews, saying we’re not supposed to neglect the assembling of ourselves together, but their assemblies are not only dead, spiritually, but they’re often actually brainwashing, mind-control institutions in which false doctrine is not only taught, but many will actually pray (James-3 curse) that we accept these false doctrines.
Churches [some criticize me for using the word ‘church’ in this way, but this is a common use in our culture] are supposed to be wonderful places of life and vitality, where people are full of the Spirit, something that can often be tangibly felt. This is normal. We should be drunk with new wine, God Himself. Isn’t that what Paul is saying?
And most pastors don’t embrace and try to learn from those who have insight as to what’s going on. They’ll actively resist such a person, and try to make sure others do too. Because they are the man. They don’t need prophetic people to balance them. They may think they know what they’re doing, but they’re the blind leading the blind, and the church in America is dead almost across the board.
It has never been easier to lust in America: TV, the internet, the low-cut top epidemic — along with “we’ll go to heaven anyway” teaching.
We need a refuge. We need churches that teach the truth and that are so right with God that being filled with God, it will be easy to overcome sin regardless what we encounter. We’ll bounce the eyes, gladly, knowing that this is an evil thing, lust demons are waiting to get back in to again drive the addiction, and that there is no real fulfillment and life there anyway. Real fulfillment is in God. And it’s real, tangible fulfillment.
What if the truth about who goes to heaven had been taught from the get-go? Our nation wouldn’t be so corrupt, for one thing. And the churches would be real, overcoming, recognizing each others gifts — walking in holiness. It would be so easy to overcome, and the temptations would be so much less anyway, because the church would have been salt and light, affecting the society so much that we’d still be the land of the free and the home of the brave.
The other thing that happens these days is pastors rarely teach the people how to be Spirit led to the point that we’ll marry the right mate. How many ‘Christians’ are really happily married, or happily single? ‘Christians’ just do what they feel like doing and hardly anyone is happy. Many are lust addicted.
But “those who are led by the Spirit are the sons of God.” Why shouldn’t this apply to marriage. If we’re supposed to move here or move there only if its God’s will (I can’t remember the text precisely), how much more should we seek God about who we should marry?
But it’s not surprising that pastors who don’t teach people how to be Spirit-led in the important issue of money, who insist people give them 10% based upon the old covenant, they’re probably not going to be Spirit-led themselves, nor teach the people how to be Spirit led in at least key events like marriage.
This is another doctrinal error that’s prevalent in the church and is hurting many! It’s not God’s fault that most ‘Christians’ are in such predicaments that they’re looking to worldly things to satisfy. Bad doctrine did it to us.
Unfortunately, most people won’t be holy unless we know we have to be [I think this is being demonstrated at the IHOP revival, that only seems to be able to go so far without Biblical salvation teaching. We’ll see in time. They’re sure trying hard, and I’m all for it!]. And without holiness, we grieve the Holy Spirit and are miserable. I suppose in this way it’s better to be hot or cold. Being born-again and willfully disobedient is to be demon driven and never satisfied.
And demons drive lust, but many pastors still teach that demons can’t even be in those who are born-again, because the Holy Spirit lives in them. That, in itself is another doctrine of demons.
And then most pastors (in my experience) pray against (James-3 curse) those who see things differently, and who are called to point this out. And many pastors ‘pray’ (James-3 curse) their false doctrines onto people, so people follow them. And they ‘pray’ that people will be against certain people. This is how they maintain control. Many are sick and even dead as a result. But who talks about James-3 curses today? Did this only happen during Bible times? I have many posts on this subject, by the way. See the pull-down menu for categories.
Many pastors teach against speaking in tongues (another false doctrine of demons), or just don’t do it much. The demons love that, because praying in tongues is one of the best ways to get free from demons. I’m glad to see that IHOP is not evading this gift as did the Vineyard movement, for the most part.
Most pastors don’t even have doctrinal goals. The only church that I know of that had the greatest two commandments prominently posted recently took them down. I was shocked!
I don’t even know one church that emphasizes the 3 texts I have in my icon at the top of my site. IHOP is talking about John 17 though. Praise God!
I personally think that most churches today do far more harm than they do good. Most are mind-control institutions, reverse-Christian in so many ways.
Why did the evangelical ‘Christians’ support President Bush no matter how many reverse-Christian wars he started, Constitutional rights he took away, or how much he and his people destroyed the economy? Why did evangelical pastors reject Ron Paul, the most pro-life (including in wars and abortion) candidate running?
This is doctrinal, because Jesus’ peacemaking principles are no longer revered. And it’s also because pastors ignored the prophetic people who were warning pastors about George Bush, while pleading for support of Ron Paul.
Now, we’re done, it seems. But we can still get real Christianity going. Jesus prayed that we’d be ONE with each other in Him. “Then,” He said, “the world will know.”
Now the world smells a rat because we are a rat. But we can become Jesus’ bride, a spotless virgin if we get our doctrine figured out, finally. It’s also possible that things could get so bad, physically, that people may then turn to God seriously enough because of that too. Though, I suspect that people will still turn to lust to satisfy until we learn that we can’t willfully lust and expect to go to heaven. It also helps to understand that cold turkey is the only way to keep lust demons from driving this addiction (once the lust demons get in through willful lust). And this is true about homosexuality too. Most people have multiple demons. The forgiving teachings are also helping people get free.
Some have taught the false doctrine that we don’t have to forgive unless those who hurt us ask forgiveness. And many pastors ignore Jesus’ teaching to get right with those we hurt before offering our gift.
And what about the elders’ qualifications? Why are those all but ignored? And why is ‘blameless’ not blameless in the qualifications? Blameless certainly means no hate, no James-3 cursing other ‘Christians.’ I think it means living in Paul’s second list in Galatians 5 — the list of those going to heaven — “The fruit of the Spirit is….” And “those who are Christ’s have crucified their flesh.”
In order for a pastor to be qualified, he, himself must be at least going to heaven. It doesn’t seem that most currently are. Many pastors aren’t even supposed to be pastors. They’re the blind leading the blind.
The good news is that once we realize that we can’t live in these willful sins even in the slightest…. Once we realize we really do have to work out our salvation through fear and trembling, then one church somewhere will get their act together. God will then be able to show up in power, like He did in the book of Acts. And perhaps this will be the beginning of the Third Great Awakening. And it will be so easy to overcome sin!
But it seems like we need to get our salvation doctrine figured out first.
And in the meantime, regarding lust, if we accept the fact that if we willfully lust we are putting ourselves in the danger zone where we probably won’t have confidence to enter heaven if we were to suddenly die unrepentant…. If we accept this fact that even the least bit of lust gives the demons a right to come in and drive it as an addiction, then it’s really not that hard to stay lust free.
But once lust demon free, if we let down our guard, and don’t look away or don’t reject that thought, then the demons jump right back in again so there is this almost continuous struggle, because the temptation is all around now.
I don’t know for sure where the line is in which God would remove our names from the Book of Life (Rev. 3:1-6) because of lust. But I do know where my conscience starts condemning me, which is Biblical according to Romans 8:1 in the full, non-NIV version:
“There is therefore now no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus, who don’t walk according to the flesh, but according to the Spirit.”
It doesn’t say ‘conviction,’ but rather ‘condemnation,’ which is where so many pastors and ‘Christians’ live much of the time.
So many pastors teach that being “in Christ,” in this passage, is what Jesus did on the cross, not what this passage then says: “…those who are in Christ Jesus, who don’t walk according to the flesh, but according to the Spirit.”
So what I’m saying, Dave, is that if we had biblical doctrine in this country for centuries, it would be so easy to live holy, and you probably wouldn’t be having this struggle.
But we can get biblical doctrine happening (and then everything else will follow, I believe). Despite the low-cut top epidemic and all, and we can still soar — getting our highs from being in God, together. ONE!
How can we get Jesus’ desire for us to happen? That’s the main theme of this site.
I think doctrine is the number one issue. But we should all be hearing from God, being led by the Holy Spirit directly so we can all do our own part to make ONE happen, by His grace that works so powerfully in us.
FREEeeeeeeeeeee———dom!!!!!!!
Let’s all get together and make it happen!
Jeff Fenske
Anchorage, Alaska
Glenn
Jeff,
I agree with you. I think that a key to understanding who goes to heaven, is understanding what the Bible requires of his new creation. What does it mean to be a new creation in Christ? Here’s my stab at that:
http://thebigpicmin.wordpress.com/2009/03/12/being-made-complete-and-perfect/
here’s an excerpt:
I was reading thru the Didache again and this passage really jumped out at me.
Didache Ch 16; But come together often, seeking the things which are befitting to your souls: for the whole time of your faith will not profit you, if you are not made perfect in the last time. For in the last days false prophets and corrupters shall be multiplied, and the sheep shall be turned into wolves, and love shall be turned into hate; for when lawlessness increases, they shall hate and persecute and betray one another, and then shall appear the world-deceiver as Son of God, …
The Didache is a writing of the Apostolic fathers, the generation of New Testament leaders that followed on the heels of the disciples.
http://www.earlychristianwritings.com/text/didache-roberts.html
This passage got me thinking about being made perfect. Here are some related Bible passages:
AMP John 17;13 And now I am coming to You; I say these things while I am still in the world, so that My joy may be made full and complete and perfect in them [that they may experience My delight fulfilled in them, that My enjoyment may be perfected in their own souls, that they may have My gladness within them, filling their hearts]. 14 I have given and delivered to them Your word (message) and the world has hated them, because they are not of the world [do not belong to the world], just as I am not of the world.
AMP 2 Cor 12;9 But He said to me, My grace (My favor and loving-kindness and mercy) is enough for you [sufficient against any danger and enables you to bear the trouble manfully]; for My strength and power are made perfect (fulfilled and completed) and show themselves most effective in [your] weakness. Therefore, I will all the more gladly glory in my weaknesses and infirmities, that the strength and power of Christ (the Messiah) may rest (yes, may pitch a tent over and dwell) upon me! 10 So for the sake of Christ, I am well pleased and take pleasure in infirmities, insults, hardships, persecutions, perplexities and distresses; for when I am weak [in human strength], then am I [truly] strong (able, powerful in divine strength). 11 Now I have been [speaking like] a fool! But you forced me to it, for I ought to have been [ saved the necessity and] commended by you. For I have not fallen short one bit or proved myself at all inferior to those superlative [false] apostles [of yours], even if I am nothing (a nobody).
AMP Phil 3;12 Not that I have now attained [this ideal], or have already been made perfect , but I press on to lay hold of (grasp) and make my own, that for which Christ Jesus (the Messiah) has laid hold of me and made me His own. 13 I do not consider, brethren, that I have captured and made it my own [yet]; but one thing I do [it is my one aspiration]: forgetting what lies behind and straining forward to what lies ahead, 14 I press on toward the goal to win the [supreme and heavenly] prize to which God in Christ Jesus is calling us upward. 15 So let those [of us] who are spiritually mature and full-grown have this mind and hold these convictions; and if in any respect you have a different attitude of mind, God will make that clear to you also. 16 Only let us hold true to what we have already attained and walk and order our lives by that. 17 Brethren, together follow my example and observe those who live after the pattern we have set for you.
Wondering what your thoughts are on this issue: following Paul or Accepting Pay
http://thebigpicmin.wordpress.com/2009/05/04/the-church-leaders-dilemma-follow-paul-or-accept-pay/
and The Pastor Virus:
http://thebigpicmin.wordpress.com/2009/03/11/pastoral-virus/
Jeff Fenske
Dear Glenn,
Thanks for sharing! I really like the Didache, as I share in this post: The Didache (70-100 AD): Reconciliation was required to attend early church meetings! “How upside-down the ‘church’ is today.”, which I just now updated after reading your comment.
I also bolded your comment according to how you did it at your site. Good stuff! It’s amazing how ‘the church’ is teaching almost totally the opposite of what the early church taught — which the Didache and the Bible predicted.
Regarding your questions, I think most pastors have viruses, big-time! Most pastors are full of demons, as my “Let Us Be ONE” prophecy shows. And most pastors James-3-curse those that they think threaten their ministry. Most pastors are in BIG trouble with God for leading the sheep astray and persecuting the prophets and those who are called by God to lead.
Most pastors are actually mind-controlling the sheep, praying (actually James-3-cursing) that people believe their teaching, give them money (often via old covenant tithing), and follow them.
Consequently, most of their sheep are demonized through these prayers (James-3-curses), and feel guilty to leave or stand up to these false prophets and reverse-shepherds.
Most of the sheep won’t even study what the Bible really says about who goes to heaven. Most pastors won’t even do a real study of this crucially important subject.
The false doctrine of who goes to heaven has been passed down from generation to generation — but not passively.
“The kingdom of heaven suffers violence, and the violent take it by force.”
I’m not totally sure of what the second part of this scripture fully means, but when people are James-3-cursed to believe doctrines of demons, it takes radical dedication to get and stay free through the power of the Holy Spirit.
We must set our face like a flint to not give in to the false teachings that are actively demon reinforced.
This is no joke, as some think, probably compelled by actual demons to laugh off real truth. And this goes for following Republicans no matter what too — supporting reverse-Christian wars. And “don’t investigate 9/11. No, no, no. We are right to invade countries who would dare do anything to US.” And then they pray (James-3-curse) people not to research what is really going on, that people would blindly follow.
Most evangelical pastors have viruses, and they spread them around — as do many evangelicals. And now we’re looking at the end of America, the fall of the republic — and the entrance of the antichrist system. We don’t know for sure, but it definitely looks close.
As to your point about Paul not accepting pay so pastors shouldn’t also, I think it depends upon the pastor. Paul didn’t make this a rule that everyone should follow; though, he certainly followed it, himself.
Perhaps Paul knew that he had a weakness in this area, and not taking money was a safety measure for him.
Certainly, most pastors would quit if they didn’t get paid for ‘pastoring’ — which says a lot about their credibility — whether they’re even called by God to pastor at all. Most aren’t. Most are manipulators, reverse-pastors, who are not only going to hell, but they’ll get the stricter judgment, the worst parts of hell in which to spend all eternity. They deceived the people.
And they took the money — even insisted that people pay 10% of their paychecks according to the old covenant law. They’re in big trouble!
But I don’t believe we should mandate something the Bible doesn’t mandate. Paul said the workman is worthy of his hire. And don’t muzzle the ox that is treading out the grain.
But most pastors, today, aren’t treading out the grain. They’re treading on the sheep. They shouldn’t get even a penny from the people. But the people are so weak and dumbed down, demonized into believing doctrines of demons, fearful to research on their own, fearful to question….
I don’t know if you’re interested, but some probably are in this article, posted at my other freedom site: Bruce E. Levine: Are Americans a Broken People? Why We’ve Stopped Fighting Back Against the Forces of Oppression. What forces have created a demoralized, passive, *dis-couraged* U.S. population? How do abusive pimps, spouses, bosses, corporations, and governments stay in control? Television helps create all eight conditions for breaking a population.
This article isn’t from a Christian perspective, but has a lot of truth about what has happened to ‘Christians.’ How do pastors control the sheep when most churches don’t even have a reputation for being alive (Rev. 3:1-5)? Why people still go to churches, giving their money, when neither the church leaders or the congregation are filled with the Holy Spirit — where the blind lead the blind — where almost all are willfully sinning sins that lead to death?
So how can the real thing happen in the almost universally deceived ‘church?’
That’s pretty much what I’ve dedicated this site to. And that is pretty much what my Let Us Be ONE prophecy is all about.
There are those who really are called by God to lead churches (as a team, by the way). I’m thinking of a person who is called to be a head pastor, who has a family to feed, and who would not be deterred from holiness in the slightest if he was allowed to lead and be paid to do so — so he could quit has manual labor job that takes so much of his time.
I would gladly give part of my paycheck to help this man lead us into unity and real Christianity. But I won’t finance hypocrites, who refuse to repent, who are leading the sheep astray.
If the people determined in their hearts how much to give, like Paul said, and weren’t demon driven, inside, then the reverse-pastors wouldn’t get paid.
The love of money is a huge factor that is keeping the church dead, no doubt, but what is the solution? When pastors teach that the people should give them 10% according to the law, they are teaching the people not to be led by the Holy Spirit in how to handle their money! And their false teaching is reinforced through their prayers that are really James-3-curses, because God won’t answer those prayers, but demons will.
I wouldn’t support the idea of making something mandatory for everyone that the Bible didn’t make mandatory for everyone. The tent-making concept should be for those who believe they are supposed to self-finance.
It’s a concept church leaders should consider (as well as those giving to church leaders). And it’s probably good to warn church leaders about the money trap, emphasizing Paul’s how Paul made sure he would be free. But I think other issues are the main reasons why real Christianity isn’t happening in most church leaders.
“Those who are led by the Spirit are the sons of God,” Paul said. We should all be led by the Holy Spirit, especially in finances.
I don’t believe that adding another regulation is the answer. Being led by the Holy Spirit is — to be a son.
I believe that when one church in one place gets their act together, when ‘ONE’ really happens there (John 17), then the world will know. Then other churches will understand what they should be too: ‘ONE’ with each other, truly being in Christ.
The Holy Spirit will lead us into all truth, the Bible says, and this includes whether certain pastors should get paid or not for their pastoring.
The key is to be led by the Holy Spirit, especially in finances, because the love of money is a gigantic root of evil, a demonic stronghold that should never be allowed to take root at all. But if it does, it needs to be excised through repentance and submission to our heavenly Father — even in our finances. So we can be FREE!
: )
thebigpicmin
Jeff,
Pls don’t think the call to the voluteer priesthood is a new regulation. Jesus established it and we have simply fallen away [Check out Jesus’ comparison of the Good Shepherd with the hired hand on “Are You In Christ’s Sheepfold?”]
http://thebigpicmin.wordpress.com/2009/07/25/are-you-in-christs-sheepfold/
The last sentence in CH 11 of the didache is also clear “But whoever says in the Spirit, Give me money, or something else, you shall not listen to him. But if he tells you to give for others’ sake who are in need, let no one judge him.”
Although I am more than willing to seek one mind on this, referring to scripture after scripture, let’s try to put this in the hands of the holy spirit and pray this prayer:
http://thebigpicmin.wordpress.com/2009/06/03/godly-church-leaders-prayer/
May God Guide Us
Glenn
Jeff Fenske
Glenn,
First, I’d like to thank you for steering me toward the Didache again. Short and to the point, it certainly does contain a lot of profound truth that is applicable for real Christianity to happen — that we would be ONE with each other in Christ (John 17).
I think it would be interesting to do an even more complete study on this concept of being made perfect in chapter 16 of the Didache:
Watch for your life’s sake. Let not your lamps be quenched, nor your loins unloosed; but be ready, for you know not the hour in which our Lord will come. But come together often, seeking the things which are befitting to your souls: for the whole time of your faith will not profit you, if you are not made perfect in the last time. For in the last days false prophets and corrupters shall be multiplied, and the sheep shall be turned into wolves, and love shall be turned into hate….
For example, how does Sardis fit into this, Rev. 3:
1 “And to the angel of the assembly in Sardis write: “He who has the seven Spirits of God, and the seven stars says these things: “I know your works, that you have a reputation of being alive, but you are dead. 2 Wake up, and keep the things that remain, which you were about to throw away, for I have found no works of yours perfected before my God. 3 Remember therefore how you have received and heard. Keep it, and repent. If therefore you won’t watch, I will come as a thief, and you won’t know what hour I will come upon you. 4 Nevertheless you have a few names in Sardis that did not defile their garments. They will walk with me in white, for they are worthy. 5 He who overcomes will be arrayed in white garments, and I will in no way blot his name out of the book of life, and I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels.
I would think that this idea of walking in perfection is walking in Paul’s who-goes-to-heaven list in Galatians 5. “Those who are Christ’s have crucified their flesh….” And it means that we don’t fall back into doing the things listed in Paul’s who-doesn’t-go-to-heaven list in Galatians 5.
We need to be right in our hearts before God, so when we see Him face to face we will have confidence to enter. (1 John)
James also uses the word perfect in chapter 2:
18 Yes, a man will say, “You have faith, and I have works.” Show me your faith without works, and I by my works will show you my faith. 19 You believe that God is one. You do well. The demons also believe, and shudder. 20 But do you want to know, vain man, that faith apart from works is dead? 21 Wasn’t Abraham our father justified by works, in that he offered up Isaac his son on the altar? 22 You see that faith worked with his works, and by works faith was perfected; 23 and the Scripture was fulfilled which says, “Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him as righteousness;” and he was called the friend of God. 24 You see then that by works, a man is justified, and not only by faith. 25 In the same way, wasn’t Rahab the prostitute also justified by works, in that she received the messengers, and sent them out another way? 26 For as the body apart from the spirit is dead, even so faith apart from works is dead.
Paul used this term also, stating that the 5-fold ministry is supposed to lead us into the “perfecting of the saints,” into maturity, “until we all attain to the unity of the faith, to the measure and stature of the fullness of Christ.” Which church in America still teaches Ephesians 4 as being the standard:
11 He gave some to be apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, shepherds and teachers; 12 for the perfecting of the saints, to the work of serving, to the building up of the body of Christ; 13 until we all attain to the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, to a full grown man, to the measure of the stature of the fullness of Christ; 14 that we may no longer be children, tossed back and forth and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the trickery of men, in craftiness, after the wiles of error; 15 but speaking truth in love, we may grow up in all things into him, who is the head, Christ; 16 from whom all the body, being fitted and knit together through that which every joint supplies, according to the working in measure of each individual part, makes the body increase to the building up of itself in love.
I have to disagree with you about your voluntary priesthood mandate, though. Your argument falls on so many levels. You said:
The last sentence in CH 11 of the didache is also clear “But whoever says in the Spirit, Give me money, or something else, you shall not listen to him. But if he tells you to give for others’ sake who are in need, let no one judge him.”
First, the Didache isn’t scripture. I think it’s very useful in helping us understand scripture, but the Didache isn’t our mandate.
Also, even if the Didache were scripture, it doesn’t say that people shouldn’t give money to church leaders. It doesn’t say they never gave money to leadership. It merely says: don’t listen to a preacher who says “give me money or something else.”
The main thing is what the scripture says.
You say that Jesus set the standard. Well, he didn’t continue carpentry during his ministry years. Nor did the disciples continue fishing, tax collecting, and etc..
And Paul wasn’t putting his volunteerism out as a mandate for everyone. 1 Cor. 9:
3 My defense to those who examine me is this. 4 Have we no right to eat and to drink? 5 Have we no right to take along a wife who is a believer, even as the rest of the apostles, and the brothers of the Lord, and Cephas? 6 Or have only Barnabas and I no right to not work? 7 What soldier ever serves at his own expense? Who plants a vineyard, and doesn’t eat of its fruit? Or who feeds a flock, and doesn’t drink from the flock’s milk?
8 Do I speak these things according to the ways of men? Or doesn’t the law also say the same thing? 9 For it is written in the law of Moses, “You shall not muzzle an ox while it treads out the grain.” Is it for the oxen that God cares, 10 or does he say it assuredly for our sake? Yes, it was written for our sake, because he who plows ought to plow in hope, and he who threshes in hope should partake of his hope. 11 If we sowed to you spiritual things, is it a great thing if we reap your fleshly things? 12 If others partake of this right over you, don’t we yet more? Nevertheless we did not use this right, but we bear all things, that we may cause no hindrance to the Good News of Christ. 13 Don’t you know that those who serve around sacred things eat from the things of the temple, and those who wait on the altar have their portion with the altar? 14 Even so the Lord ordained that those who proclaim the Good News should live from the Good News.
15 But I have used none of these things, and I don’t write these things that it may be done so in my case; for I would rather die, than that anyone should make my boasting void. 16 For if I preach the Good News, I have nothing to boast about; for necessity is laid on me; but woe is to me, if I don’t preach the Good News. 17 For if I do this of my own will, I have a reward. But if not of my own will, I have a stewardship entrusted to me. 18 What then is my reward? That, when I preach the Good News, I may present the Good News of Christ without charge, so as not to abuse my authority in the Good News.
Paul clearly held himself to a different standard for himself than most of the other apostles. He calls receiving fleshly things for preaching a right (v. 12), what the Lord ordained (v. 14).
He also chose not to participate in the right to be married, unlike the other apostles (v. 4).
Also, when ONE happened in Acts, when they were all in one accord, signs and wonders following, and the fear of God was on the community — the leaders were financed by people selling what they had and giving it to the community of believers.
So if a person chooses (believing that they are called by the Holy Spirit) to be single, like Paul, wonderful. Then he should do what he’s Spirit-led to do. But most of us would do much better married. Look at the evil fruit that has resulted in the Catholic church mandating celibacy.
And similarly, if a person chooses to never accept a penny for what he sows spiritually (like Paul did) because of an inner conviction to do so, great! But this isn’t probably even the ideal for most ministers — as it wasn’t even for the other apostles.
It would be sin and serious error for us to put out celibacy and volunteerism as a mandate when no one in the Bible did.
This is how false doctrine starts. We need to be dedicated to teaching what the Bible teaches.
thebigpicmin
Jeff, I agree that the Didache does not reach the level of scripture, but is it reasonable to think that the first generation of followers after the Apostles got this simple issue so wrong? That seems like a
1 Cor 9 seems to give men full rights to accept pay for preaching, but to understand this you have to put that scripture on the “scale” with the rest of the word and let the Holy Spirit show you how to evaluate them.
For a list of scriptures that support the volunteer priesthood see the postscript of this link:
http://thebigpicmin.wordpress.com/2009/04/26/good-and-bad-preachers-know-gods-distinction/
The only way that I have been able to resolve these scriptures centers around
NIV 1 Cor 9 18What then is my reward? Just this: that in preaching the gospel I may offer it free of charge, and so not make use of my rights in preaching it. 19Though I am free and belong to no man, I make myself a slave to everyone, to win as many as possible
Paul was free to accept money for preaching[according to the Law tradition] but the Holy Spirit drove him to be the servant slave, Lets look at NIV Matt 20: 25-28
25Jesus called them together and said, “You know that the rulers of the Gentiles lord it over them, and their high officials exercise authority over them. 26Not so with you. Instead, whoever wants to become great among you must be your servant, 27and whoever wants to be first must be your slave— 28just as the Son of Man did not come to be served, but to serve, and to give his life as a ransom for many.”
Among the true followers of Jesus whoever wants to be first must be the slave!!
Now we look at GWT 2 Thess 3:6 Brothers and sisters, in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ we order you not to associate with any believer who doesn’t live a disciplined life and doesn’t follow the tradition you received from us. 7 You know what you must do to imitate us. We lived a disciplined life among you. 8 We didn’t eat anyone’s food without paying for it. Instead, we worked hard and struggled night and day in order not to be a burden to any of you. 9 It’s not as though we didn’t have a right to receive support. Rather, we wanted to set an example for you to follow.
Here Paul spells out his reason for not accepting support, to give us an example to follow.
Many will never be able to see this, but I pray that you are not among them.
May God Guide us,
Glenn
PS Who are the fence jumpers in John 10:1. Isn’t it either the good shepherds or the hired hands?
Jeff Fenske
Glenn,
We’re getting pretty far off topic here; though, many are selling their souls because of the love of money. If we’re going to say much more about this, perhaps we should continue in a separate post, or maybe we’ve taken this as far as we should, for now.
Readability matters:
Also, before I forget, in case you’re interested — you want me to read scriptures on your site, but they would be much easier to read if you would choose a font other than a grey, monospaced one. I’m pretty sure what you’re reading in here is a font called Verdana, and it’s black on a white background for maximum contrast. I’m not stating this as a mandate, but merely as an example for you to follow, from your Paul-quote.
My personal example:
I should point out that I have spent many tens of thousands of dollars on my spiritual education over the 35 years of being a born-again Christian. And only God knows how many thousands of hours I’ve dedicated to prayer, research, writing, and etc.. And the only monetary reward I recall receiving is a friend giving me $50 once, when I was leading home meetings.
Not only do I do this site for free, but my other freedom site as well, and what I do at jefffenske.com — where you can see firsthand how I’ve earned my money. I’ve even done my latest project there, Cargo’s Last Stand for free, which has taken a lot of time and effort.
This $50 didn’t poison me, nor did the money, food, shelter and etc. that Jesus and the apostles got poison them — except Judas, BIG-TIME! But Jesus didn’t stop this probably so the scripture could be fulfilled.
I don’t love money, and I really don’t believe there is anyone who could compromise me with money. And if I were to write the commentary for and publish “Let Us Be ONE” (like I’m supposed to (but can’t seem to get it done or even started), I wouldn’t have any problem, I don’t think, charging for it. But I would probably also offer an e-version of it online for free.
And if someone gave me a lot of money so I could focus my energy more fully on what I’m called to do, I’d take it, as long as there weren’t ungodly strings attached. I fear God more than I love money. I believe personally what I’m teaching in this post.
Balance:
I think your teaching is a balancing teaching, but not a balanced teaching. And I’m not sure how teachable you, yourself are. I just stated in my last comment a number of facts, and you just seem to mostly blow them off.
You’re placing a mandate on everyone that none of the Bible writers did. And “this is sin,” I believe God just said. This is dangerland. Do you not take seriously the warning that ~”few should consider themselves to be teachers because they’ll get a stricter judgment?” We need to be sooooooooo careful — and Biblically balanced — even when we’re balancing severe deception in the church.
I just wrote a post at ToBeFree how those opposing the New World Order sometimes exaggerate and say things that aren’t necessarily true in order to save the USA. They shouldn’t do this for secular goals (no matter how important) and we should never ever do this for spiritual goals.
I do believe that the baby of what you’re teaching (baby, referring to the baby and the bathwater concept) is something that should be openly proclaimed — but carefully, and not with all of the bathwater (making what Paul said a mandate when he didn’t make it such — nor did the other apostles and Jesus even do this).
If you feel driven to push your perspective, it’s probably because what you’re pushing is a doctrine of demons that can be demonically driven. We need to be very careful about letting feelings influence our doctrines and what we teach! You seem to be too feeling driven, because you so quickly and fully seem to ignore the facts that oppose your premise.
The love of money is corrupting many ‘Christians,‘ and many ‘Christian’ leaders, but your solution isn’t for everyone, as you teach it is. It probably is for many, though, and you risk turning those off by making it a mandate for everyone.
Where is the fear of God in your mindset? And do you not realize that you could be demon driven in order to drive people away from the baby of what you’re teaching? Like I said, we need to be soooooooooooo careful. We need to be resting, have a pure heart — now willful unrepentant sin. We should pray in tongues regularly and forgive everyone from our hearts — or we can be demon driven — like most ‘Christian’ leaders, today, are. The deception in these last days is so great….
I know you want to help people be free from the deception. But we must be free, first. “An overseer must be blameless.” Overseers must live in Paul’s who-goes-to-heaven list in Galatians 5. And “First, take the plank out of your own eye so we can see clearly to take the speck [piece of sawdust] out of our own eye.
JWs:
Do you realize that what your teaching is mandated in the Jehovah’s Witnesses faith, I’m fairly sure is the case? Correct me if I”m wrong. And they go door to door trying to convince people to no longer believe that Jesus is God, that hell doesn’t exist, weird things about the Holy Spirit, etc..
It’s a cult. They’re major deceivers. And as far as I know they teach exactly what you’re teaching. They all volunteer, locally — but probably not at the top, top. Your teaching isn’t stopping them. And many of them may even wear their volunteerism as a badge: “look at us. We’re not like you who take money.” And then they try their hardest to convince people to not worship Jesus. I’m getting to know how they think, somewhat.
Some ‘Christian’ leaders may do even worse through volunteerism than through receiving monetary gifts.
But not through old covenant tithing. Tithing is such a serious deception that hurts everyone, including God, whom they rob from when they way the people are robbing God when they don’t tithe. Tithing is totally refuted on this site [see my “Tithing or Spirit-led” category].
But just being on payroll (whether the church teaches tithing or not) can definitely be a snare. There are definitely many ‘Christian’ leaders who should do what Paul did, heeding more sincerely what Paul said.
I know of a ‘church’ that hurt many people but won’t hold the leaders who did so to account, and much of this is because the other leaders would lose their positions, whether paid or unpaid.
Those who are paid staff may be even more likely to kowtow, to keep the dysfunctional system going. But the unpaid staff can sometimes do this just as strongly.
At this site, I’m trying to emphasize the errors that are at the heart of what is keeping real Christianity from happening, and show the solutions. I’m trying to bring balance.
So far, I haven’t talked about the love of money, much. The Bible really does say it’s “the root of all evil,” right — not just “a root of all kinds of evil?” I have to admit that I don’t fully understand how the love of money is the root of lusting, for example. But I can certainly see how those who love money are driven to lust, like in the post I just wrote at ToBeFree.
We need to make sure that we are totally free from the actual love of money demons who are the root of all evil (when they’re inside a person, ‘Christian’ or not, born-again or not).
So, Glenn, I definitely think you are on to something. What Paul really did teach needs to be taught more so that leaders will make sure whether they are to take any earthly rewards for what they sow spiritually.
Jesus received earthly rewards; the other apostles did; and Paul probably did to some degree too, if you think about it. Paul may not have allowed himself to take money, but he almost certainly stayed at people’s homes and ate their food for free.
And the Christians in the Didache probably did too. And the Didache really doesn’t say that Christians shouldn’t ever take money or things that people uncoerced give to them.
We really have to be honest about what the texts say. And what is the real lesson the Didache is pointing out? Are they really saying never, ever receive spiritually from someone who mentions they could use some money or some food? Or are they saying, hey, watch out for those who make sure they’re going to make a lot of money before they’ll fly to Alaska and teach at your church (which is what happens here)?
The writer(s) of the Didache clearly wanted the people not to enable teachers who are love-of-money driven. And the writer(s) probably also wanted the church to not be deceived by teachers who are love-of-money driven, teachers who have a demon (or demons) that are actually in them as the root of all evil.
People who are love-of-money driven shouldn’t be teaching, whether they do so voluntarily or not.
The bottom line is that those who are led by the Spirit of God are children of God. And if it is sin for a certain person to receive earthly things for ministering spiritual things then he better not. But for many it isn’t sin, like it wasn’t for Jesus and the other apostles, just like Paul was convinced he wasn’t supposed to marry. And look at what happens when an organization makes celebacy mandatory for its leaders (the Catholic Church — though they have many other deceptions as well). And if you’re interested in where I personally stand on marriage for myself, I recently wrote THIS.
These things are not so cut and dry, like you say is the case regarding volunteerism.
And it’s likely that Paul didn’t have all Christians everywhere in mind when he said he was setting an example for you to follow. We have to look at the whole context. Have you checked the commentaries and writings on theologians regarding what was going on in Thessalonica? There are probably umpteen articles written on this subject. Perhaps there is something you’re missing that would help you see why Paul and why not the others — including those in Acts where ONE happened — which is HUGE!
You can’t dismiss these other crystal clear examples in order to push something that Paul didn’t even mandate. You just seem to blow right on by what the rest of the New Testament says that disagrees with your premise. We need to be careful (and relaxed) listeners, having peace within. Then we can hear God’s voice and promptings, as well as what others say without knee-jerk emotions that are almost always actually demon-driven.
Out of a place of peace we can perceive without tainting what we’re hearing. We need to live in the who-goes-to-heaven, “fruit of the Spirit,” Galatians-5 list in order to properly perceive. “Then we can be ONE,” I believe I just heard God say. “Dreams can happen.”
May we all walk together in love, in Christ, ringing pure tones that resonate peace. No more gong clanging (1 Cor. 13). Then the world will know (John 17)
Jeff : )
Adrian Timmins
Just thinking on this and maybe all those who claim Christ and paradise should start to walk in the faith of Abraham, maybe they should also understand what the faith of Abraham was/is. Take the time to read Genesis 18 and you will see what El Shaddai/YHWH says Abrams faith is all about – its a wonderful eye opening scripture round about the time of the prophesy of Sarai’s child just before the destruction of the wicked cities of Sodom and Gommorah where only righteous Lot and his family were saved.
Take a look you may be shocked as to what God calls faith. !
Brother
Adrian
sue
Hey, where in Kansas City? I live there and am looking for a good word place.
paula
This is great, it’s wonderful to hear someone is putting out correctly.
anonymous 16 year old
yo, jeff hope ur okay there. 😀
Matthew Parvin
Hey, all you Law Keepers, have you read Hewbrew 7:11 & 12? which says the Law was changed and since the law was changed of necessity the priesthood was changed. Aaron is the priest of the law of man, Jesus is from above, heavenly, and the Law was changed….:0
Glenn
Jeff,
Please understand that I am not saying that the $50 has tainted you. I am simply saying that God’s spirit and his word calls his true shepherds to sacrifice thier lives for the sheep[see John 10], not to survive off of the flesh [worldliness] of their followers. This is the predominant state in our Babylonian churches. This is what makes them harlots. This is the abomination that causes desecration.
http://thebigpicmin.wordpress.com/2011/04/02/those-who-never-taste-death/
God Bless
Glenn
Joshua Howard
Jeff,
I’m a conditional salvation type guy like you, but its clear to me your challenge appears “gamed” by tons of additions, provisions and clarifications, visions, etc… that no one would really waste their time with you–particularly since you haven’t the inclination to name an unbiased third party or committee to evaluate the proofs.
If you really want to be honest, then you have to issue a clear statement: “Salvation is conditional”. Then, present a brief outline of proofs with footnotes to expound.
EXAMPLE: “Salvation is Conditional”
1. Over XX scriptures to an already saved person indicates their salvation would be lost with a particular sin or pattern of sins.
2. Scriptures that appear to render the above moot due to predestination and it’s logical antecedent, perseverance, are…(mistranslated, taken out of context, etc….) and should be understood to represent God’s actions as a result of a person’s choosing Faith in Christ, necessitating perseverence.
3. The church down through the ages has believed in conditional salvation. Perseverance of the believer is a creation of the Reformation.
etc….
The key here is to establish your support without gaming the system and hiding behind 35 pages of rambling provisions, provisos, addendums, visions, and rambling dialog. No one would waste his time trying to “refute” such a rambling tome.
That’s the deal. Do some research on how to lay out a legitimate challenge for debate, with and agreement to find a panel of debate experts to judge the winner. Then, you’ll have many takers. Otherwise, your just creating a “game” with a predetermined outcome (you get to keep your 6K).
Jeff Fenske
It’s time that I answer this. I wanted to make sure the coast was clear. I really don’t want to joust on this very important post.
I’m a conditional salvation type guy like you, but its clear to me your challenge appears “gamed” by tons of additions, provisions and clarifications, visions, etc… that no one would really waste their time with you–particularly since you haven’t the inclination to name an unbiased third party or committee to evaluate the proofs.
If you really want to be honest, then you have to …
The key here is to establish your support without gaming the system and hiding behind 35 pages of rambling provisions, provisos, addendums, visions, and rambling dialog. No one would waste his time trying to “refute” such a rambling tome.
That’s the deal. Do some research on how to lay out a legitimate challenge for debate, with and agreement to find a panel of debate experts to judge the winner. Then, you’ll have many takers. Otherwise, your just creating a “game” with a predetermined outcome (you get to keep your 6K).
For those interested in my response:
I didn’t start out with a challenge. The challenge came later, so that people would know to take this seriously. I started out with studying the Bible on my own to see what it really says. Finally, I compiled the scriptures and presented them without micro editing so people could read them in context and see that I’m not gaming the system, which is what most systematic theology textbooks do. They put together a bunch of short passages that support their thesis while not showing the adjacent scriptures that show otherwise, or the scriptures that appear later in the text that prove otherwise — because so many of the OSAS texts are taken from Paul’s introductions, when he is just introducing his subject, before he gets into the meat.
I called this essay Who-Goes-To-Heaven Scriptures, because I wanted to present just that: the scriptures in the New Testament that show who goes to heaven. I want the people to see firsthand what most have not been taught.
I’m not gaming anything. The conclusions that these scriptures draw is totally the opposite of what most professors and pastors teach across America. If they are right and I am wrong then it should be obvious to many readers, and I would admit I lost. The people are the committee.
I set up some guidelines so no one can win the challenge without refuting the overall consensus that these scriptures conclude as a whole. I admit I could be wrong in how I’m interpreting a certain passage, but I stand by the overall conclusion.
For example, I was taught that the lists in Galatians 5 really weren’t talking about who goes to heaven and who goes to hell. I believe the following chapter does show Paul was talking about salvation in the chapter-5 lists. But if someone were to show that I was wrong that doesn’t mean they’ve disproven my thesis, because there are many scriptures that show who really goes to heaven. Those have to be shown to not mean what they seem to mean also.
Another example: lately, with the help of a reader, I am reconsidering my long held perspective of what Hebrews 10 means. Hebrews 10:26 was the verse I found in 1975, which proved to me that OSAS was false. But it is possible 10:26-39 is talking about the unpardonable sin discussed in Hebrews 6.
The verse in Hebrews 6 actually really threw me off for a number of years, thinking that it was then hard to lose ones salvation, and impossible to get it back once it was lost. I do believe that Hebrews 6 is referring to a specific public rejection of Christ.
Regarding Hebrews 10 and 12, I’ve been thinking about it, praying for clarification as to how it fits. I’m leaving it as it is for now, but this is a scripture that could be placed differently within this thesis in the future. The Holy Spirit was sent to in part, lead us into all truth. He can show us what exactly is meant in Hebrews 10 and 12.
And I’m not concerned about losing this challenge, because this study isn’t just based upon careful research. I’ve had various dreams and words from God, including some of the statements in Let Us Be ONE — a 34-part prophecy.
I’ve mentioned a few times in this blog about the dream that set me straight — that freed me from what I had falsely concluded from Hebrews 6.
I don’t plan on revamping this post, but I do think some changes are warranted, especially it would be good to write a clearer introduction, discussing my dream. I am also planning on making some YouTube videos in which I may read this entire post, and perhaps explaining some things along the way. First, I’ll probably read my Let Us Be ONE prophecy word for word.
I’ve had a rough, pretty frustrating Spring and Summer. I’ve felt during these months that people need to step up. I shouldn’t have to do so much on my own with hardly any support. And I’m not talking about money either. I think people know what they should do but just don’t.
The Holy Spirit is trying to bring us together, but He won’t make us do anything. I get really frustrated at times, knowing that some people are actively praying against me and trying to keep others from doing what is right so ONE can happen, Jesus prayer for us in John 17.
It’s not that hard, but we have to do it or He will not come, and we will go through this coming difficult period on our own. And that is very scary for me.
It’s like before WWII, most pastors taught false Christianity which allowed Hitler to rise to power. Most evangelicals will continue to support the Republican front runner no matter what because they have been taught a false gospel, and they won’t do their research to see what’s really going on, or at least read the research like what I am doing at ToBeFree. Most people are willfully ignorant, and this is so frustrating to me, because it’s not that hard. But this is what the Bible said would happen. We should expect this. Jesus prophecied this would happen:
Baruch: “Not only is DECEPTION of the church possible, it was PROPHESIED TO HAPPEN!” — Jesus said “IN THE LAST DAYS THE MAJORITY WILL BE DECEIVED, take heed that it doesn’t happen to you” — “FALSE TEACHERS are actually SPEAKING SPELLS with the words of their FALSE DOCTRINES!”
Most pastors I know pray that people believe what they say and pray against those who say otherwise. I think this is the biggest reason why most Christians who have read this Who-Goes-To-Heaven article don’t accept it and run. They have been James-3 cursed to accept false doctrine and reject the straight Biblical truth. Most people go by how they feel, and most take the easy way instead of making sure.
“But how could most pastors be wrong?”
Jesus said this would happen, and most pastors supported Hitler. Deitrich Bonnhoeffer was one of the few exceptions who taught that we actually have to follow the sermon on the mount, of which large portions are front and center in this post.
The dream I had in which I was in danger of going to hell because of willfully lusting (almost 20 years ago while watching TV for a 1 or 2 week period) ended with a summary of Matthew 5:27-30. That was my wake up call in which I knew for sure that Jesus meant what He said. We are definitely supposed to take Jesus’ words literally. Because most are not, we are losing our country just as the Germans did, and many are going to hell, thinking they are going to heaven.
And what is so frustrating to me is that we could be on cloud 9, one with each other in Christ — filled with the Spirit, walking in love, but we’re split apart, living in the doldrums….
Jesus said He would give us His glory that we would be ONE. But most churches have gone the other direction, refusing to obey, refusing to get right with those they’ve hurt, praying that people would reject what the ideas that people like myself teach.
They’re in big trouble, and they don’t even feel the presence of God anymore. The churches are dead, and they act like everything is just fine — big smiles — “Ha, ha, ha….” Dead.
[WordPOWER!] God’s Remedy for James-3 Cursing & Partysville in Today’s Church is James 4
James 4 is and has been the solution. To not repent and get right with everyone is to go around the mountain, while doing what God is prompting you to do is the only way to be free.
With hardly anyone stepping up, I often just focus on my favorite hobby, photography, because I can’t do this on my own. The body is many members who have different gifts. We all need to obey.
I think it was in Bill Gothard’s Basic Youth Conflicts seminar that he showed a triangle with God at the point on top. The husband and wife were the bottom two points. The closer they got to God the closer they got to each other. But the closer they got to each other the closer they got to God too.
The only way ONE will happen is if we become ONE with each other and God. This is what this site is all about: ONE happening. And when ONE happens, then the world will know. Now they smell a rat, but we can show them the way!
Will you help?
Please?
Jesus is the way.
Power to the peaceful!
“God resists the proud but gives grace to the humble.”
We can spend the rest of our lives on cloud 9!
It’s not complicated. We just have to do what we know deep down we should do. We have to be like little children.
Jeff Fenske
thebigpicmin
Jeff,
Not interested in the $6,000 challenge, but with the heart of seeking one mind, I would like to present a simple argument to you. I totally agree with you that the narrow way is the only way to the Kingdom of God, to salvation, to offering our lives as a living holy sacrifice, to becoming a disciple of Jesus.
But the Bible clearly states that there is another way into the Kingdom of Heaven. The folks who are not saved by Jesus will sit at the judgment seat, and contrary to today’s teachings of our Nicolatian Priestclass Beasts, not all are rejected. The Bible describes the great white throne judgment as the separation of the sheep and the goats. The sheep are granted access to the Kingdom of Heaven!! This is God’s plumbline of righhteousness. These sheep have not blasphemed the Holy Spirit and they will inherit the kingdom that was prepared for them from the beginning of the world!!!! Matt 25:34
This post talks a little about some differences between the Kingdom of Heaven and the Kingdom of God:
http://thebigpicmin.wordpress.com/2011/10/10/the-gospel-of-peace-saved-by-jesus-or-slain-by-the-sword/
God Bless
Glenn
P.S.I have a detailed analysis of the scriptures that distinguish between the two kingdoms if interested.
Seamus Morris
I have no problem with Christians getting into the the Kingdom of Heaven or the Kingdom of God which is the same thing. What I can find no proof in scripture for is the belief that people go to Heaven in this age before the ressurrection. I take it you know getting into the Kingdom of God and going to Heaven are two different things. I was hoping you would send me your email address so I could send you the full article on it.God bless you Seamus Morris
Jeff Fenske
Seamus,
What you suggest isn’t a concern of mine, and is off topic here. There have been so many people who have gone to heaven and testified about what they experienced, and they all agree — as well as Paul saying:
“For I am hard-pressed between the two, having a desire to depart and be with Christ, which is far better.” (Philippians 1:23)
“We are confident, yes, well pleased rather to be absent from the body and to be present with the Lord.” (2Corinthians 5:8)
You’re probably very familiar with these passages, and have your take on them, but I’m not interested. My theme here is who goes to heaven? This is by far the more important issue.
And my email is listed at “About Jeff Fenske,” top-right on this page.
jeff
Tony Diaz
No one goes to heaven jeff because we all fall short of gods glory. We are all hopeless and according to your presentation unless we try and try and try to stay “on fire for God” we will perish. Never mind rom 9;16 which states it does not depend on mans effort or desire but on Gods mercy or Rom 5;18-19 where the greek word for ALL is NT:3956 PAS and it means all. All men have been justified, however it does not mention women so it would lead one to think…jk. Do your study on the origins of Hell and try and be objective (teachable) and you will find that the good news of Jesus Christ is better than you thought. The word for fear (phobos) Rom 8:15 is the same as the word reverence used in Rev 11:18 so in researching why the dichotomy between the scriptures pertaining to fear I”ve come to this conclusion. Fear in a terrifying sense is what perfect love casts out 1John 4:18 and this type of fear comes from not knowing Gods goodnes, and fear in an awe inspiring awareness comes from getting to know Him. Hell is here on earth and is happing as we speak at many different levels. Being the scholar you are you are probably aware of the word tartaroo which is found in the 2 epistle of Peter verse 4 its strongs defenition is the deepest level of Hades. The words discernment, judgement, condemnation and damnation are all of the same family of words, Krima, Krino, Krisis. Time is what God created to seperate us from the eternal. 2Cor 4:18 tells us to fix our eyes on not what is seen but unseen because what is seen is temporal (time). Satan is the god of this world because this world is perishing in time. It would cause a thinking peron to conclude that Satan who is at the same time mind you no pun intended, 1. locked in chains (our flesh) 2.roaming the earth (hell) and 3. in the throneroom of God (The Father of ALL in ALL) All at the same time, why???how??? I will give you $7000 Jeff if you can convince me that a loving God is trying to scare the Fuck out of all His people one minute excuse my French and have us cuddle up next to Him the next minute. Thank GOD the government has taken Christianity out of it because if it hadnt we would be burning “faggots” at the stake instead of loving them to a redeming God.
Jeff Fenske
Tony,
[I wrote this in a Facebook comment recently, and it also fits here (with some changes)]
…the fear of the Lord is TOTALLY biblical (and it’s not just awe or respect). It helps keep us in the guardrails in which we truly do live in Christ, overcoming sin, where “perfect love casts out fear.”
Since “the fear of the Lord is the BEGINNING OF WISDOM,” those without the fear of the Lord (or who reject the fear of the Lord) are…?
“Do what thou wilt” is the motto of Satanism. Whereas “Those who are led by the Spirit are the sons of God” is what the Bible says.
The fear of the Lord helps to keep us on the narrow way that leads to eternal life in heaven.
“Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter into the Kingdom of Heaven; but he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven.” – Jesus
……………..
I don’t want to be a fool. And Paul made sure he wasn’t a fool too. He said it straight: “WORK OUT YOUR SALVATION THROUGH *FEAR* and *TREMBLING*” (which can’t merely be ‘awe’ or ‘respect’). And that’s how he ran his race.
1 Cor. 9:24-27
“Don’t you know that those who RUN in a RACE all run, but one receives the prize? Run like that, THAT YOU MAY WIN. Every man who strives in the games exercises self-control in all things. Now they do it TO RECEIVE a corruptible CROWN, but we an INCORRUPTIBLE. I therefore run like that, as not uncertainly. I FIGHT LIKE THAT, as not beating the air, but I BEAT MY BODY and BRING IT INTO SUBMISSION, LEST by any means, after I have preached to others, I MYSELF SHOULD BE REJECTED.”
Paul, the grace teacher [grace enables us to overcome] could then say:
Acts 23:1
“Paul, looking steadfastly at the council, said, “Brothers, I have lived before God IN ALL GOOD CONSCIENCE until this day.”
Acts 24:16 “I also PRACTICE ALWAYS having a CONSCIENCE VOID OF OFFENSE TOWARD GOD AND MEN.”
Paul made sure he OVERCAME so his name was would not be REMOVED FROM THE BOOK OF LIFE — Jesus’ statement in Rev. 3:1-6.
“Abiding in Christ” is not like in the song that repeats over and over, unbiblically: “Never let go.”
Jesus said in John 15:5,6, that we have to abide in Him so we can bear much fruit, but if we don’t, we’ll be THROWN INTO THE FIRE AND BURNED.
“I am the vine. You are the branches. He who remains in me, and I in him, the same bears much fruit, for apart from me you can do nothing. If a man doesn’t remain in me, he is thrown out as a branch, and is withered; and they gather them, THROW THEM INTO THE FIRE, and they are burned.”
That should make us *tremble* and get on the NARROW road that leads to salvation — which FEW FIND, Jesus said in Matthew 7.
We’re living in the days of great deception. We need the fear of the Lord to make it home. ♥
Jeff Fenske
Tony, regarding your ideas on Hell, which is in vogue right now, but totally unbiblical:
[EXCELLENT video] Francis Chan and Preston Sprinkle: Erasing Hell — “He gets to define what love is, and not us.” “That means my sin is way worse than I could ever even imagine.” | ~”I think this whole concept of ‘how could God do this’ is woven into the fabric of our culture that says ‘how dare my dad tell me what I can and cannot do!’ We’ve lost the idea of authority, and it’s killing our culture.”
[10-minute video] Francis Chan: Erasing Hell — “Do you ever even consider the possibility that maybe the Creator’s sense of justice is actually more developed than yours? And that maybe His love and His mercy are perfect, and that you could be the one that is flawed. … We can’t afford to be wrong on this issue.”
Tony Diaz
Erasing Hell is unblical and being in vogue has not been my agenda. I am merely stating that Hell is right now and that it is not what the Hellenistic theology claimed that it was. If you examine Romans 9:22 prepared or fitted for destruction is NT2675 katartizo meaning repaired not prepared. God fixes broken stuff either here on the fallem earth or later in the lake of fire and “brimestone” NT 2304 Nt 2305 NT2316 theion theios theo, Godlike or God. The church throughout the centuries has always controlled the masses with fear but as you know we are having a breakdown in our culture and controll is no longer working. The love she has shown the world in the past two milleniums has been a far cry from what Jesus has taught us and maybe she, the church, Gods bride, has been wrong in her translations of the most holy scriptures regarding Hell. I was a Satanist as a young man and Jesus found me not via the fear of Hell but via the forgiveness from Hell. Satanists, homosexuals, murderers and liars are all reaping their wages of sin right now because they are forfitting Gods glory (Rom 1:21-32) in exchange for sin. Christians biggest misconception of sin is that it is fun and though it has some elements of thrill it is never a substitute for the presence of God. We are more concerned about our “future” punishment that we forget about the suffering sinners that are in bondage or have you “Hell” right now. Satan has us concerned over something in the future while we should be concerned of what we are doing right now. If you care to Look up the words for wicked and evil and see that they merely describe pain. Sin is an outward manifistation of an inward pain. All sin is, is an abesence of faith Rom 14:23. Redemtion means the ransom price paid while salvation means healing. Work out your salvation yes, but it is God that is doing it, read the whole scripture. The beginning of widom not the end of wisdom is to fear the Lord. Every human being has fear they need to deal with and perfect love deals with it, not Hell. Ive been in the church for 25 years and have heard every doctrine there is to hear and quite frankly they all say the same thing you are saying, turn or burn. This is what I am saying judgement starts in the house of the Lord and if what you are saying is true Jeff, yikes you better start repenting because the dogmatic arrangment of scriptures you are using is much like that of a pharasee. Try loving a sinner to repentance, thats what the fruit of the spirit is not scaring the B’Jesus out of them. Hell is the most ambiguous concept Jesus spoke about and yet us Christians throw it around like we actually are the gatekeepers of it. No Francis Chan, we cant afford to be wrong about anything which is why God sent his son so that ALL men can go to heaven. If I dont get my theology right can I still get in?? Or am I saved by grace through faith?? And my last question Jeff, Are you the judge?? because if you are I owe you awefilled reverent apology. LOL.
Jeff Fenske
Tony,
I’ve never been a Satanist. I’ve just over many years thought about and carefully put together what the Bible says about who goes to heaven. And “Erasing Hell” is biblical. Francis Chan and Preston Sprinkle carefully present the many scriptures that give the truth about Hell.
You don’t have to agree, but you certainly aren’t biblical in concluding we are wrong, based upon the evidence you give here. I wonder if you have even carefully read what we have written. You seem to have your mind made up.
Jesus and the New Testament writers warned about going to Hell many times. This is a good thing that helps us stay on the narrow way. Would you rebuke them too?
Yes, God gives us the grace and power so we can work out our salvation through fear and trembling. He enables us as we commit to living holy and overcoming sin. But it’s up to us, not Him. If we abide in Him…, Jesus said. He’s not going to make us abide in Him. And if we don’t, what happens according to Jesus in John 15?
Without the fear of the Lord, most people are not going to walk in holiness to the degree required to go to heaven.
And without the fear of the Lord, revival isn’t going to happen either — which is Jesus’ heart-cry for us to become ‘ONE.’ Then the world will know – John 17.
What if you spend so much effort in your coffee shop [which is no doubt a labor of love], but hardly anyone goes to heaven in the end because you’re not being open to what the Bible really says?
We must be biblical, even if it isn’t popular.
jeff
Anonymous
No Jeff I have clearly read your comments and they line up with all the dogmatic theology of a Hellfire Baptist preacher but clearly you havent studied the original meanings to words thrown around by the majority of the church. So there is a degree required to meet to get into heaven eh? Bummer, because in reality I haven”t ever met it and never will. The word for confess or acknowledge is homologia it means homo “one” and logia or logos ” the word” being one with the word. That is why we confess our sins not pretend we are meeting a standard not even the Pharasees could meet. If being a Christian in the days of the inquisition meant killing Jews and Muslims to get ino heaven, clearly you would have been with the majority of the Francis’s of the “faith”. The fear of the Lord is an inquisitive fear which is why to seek in greek (zeteo) means to inquire or request or even demand. God is love and I didnt see the definition in 1cor13 describing an eternal hell. I am aware and have even warned my family and friends of this Hell you talk about in my past and have come to find out that if I myself like you truly believed in Hell we would be giving more than $6000 out as a reward. Perhaps the reward is just an appeal to arouse your theological knowledge. Hell is real its just happing in us NOW not after we die. Study the difference between redemption and salvation and you will find Gods true heart for humanity. Revival in Greek means being less crowded. Dont you think its time we as the church start studying the word and stop paroting Francis so and so”s. Tony
Jeff Fenske
I waited to respond to this, because I wanted to make sure in saying something this heavy.
Since having this discussion with Tony Diaz (comments 71-73), I’ve had similar conversation with other grace changers whom I know personally.
This is very serious. Those who teach others that they can keep on willfully sinning and still go to heaven are in part responsible for those who ran with their message and are already in hell, or will be.
I have done my best to present what the New Testament actually says about who goes to heaven, presenting the authors’ conclusions, instead of emphasizing the greatest hits verses which are deceiving many.
Jesus said: “narrow is the way and few find it.” He said we must take up our cross and actually follow Him. He warned us that even if we look at a women to lust after her we’re committing adultery in our hearts, and it would be better to cut out our eye or cut off our arm than lose our whole body in hell.
There is a major trend right now to totally throw out the numerous warning scriptures, and do whatever, believing there will be no bad consequences. Some even say they’re following Christ; though, they teach another gospel, and their fruit stinks — though they claim it smells so good — and it’s so fun to be free to do whatever and still have assurance.
In Galatians 5 (in my article, above), Paul says: “Those who belong to Christ have crucified the flesh with its passions and lusts,” after listing those who will not inherit the kingdom of God. It’s not a stretch to say that most Americans are solidly within the first list, because of the “never let go” teaching that prevails.
Earlier in Galatians 1, Paul says:
But even if we, or an angel from heaven, should preach to you a gospel contrary to what we have preached to you, he is to be accursed! As we have said before, so I say again now, if any man is preaching to you a gospel contrary to what you received, he is to be accursed!
Jesus said:
It would be better for him if a millstone were hung around his neck, and he were thrown into the sea, rather than that he should cause one of these little ones to stumble.
It would be better because those who consider themselves to be teachers will get a stricter judgment, and if they cause others to willfully sin without repenting and so go to hell, those who led them astray are increasing the judgment they themselves will receive in hell, unless they repent.
There is no doubt in my mind that the above is true. My fear is that many teachers will continue to reject what the Bible clearly says, because God isn’t yelling in their ear the truths that are so clear. He gives us free will to willfully sin and even lead others astray, and is seemingly silent once we decide to go our own way. But His apparent silence is not an okay to willfully sin without consequences:
In Psalm 50 God Warns: “You have done these things, and I kept silent. You thought that I was just like you. … Now consider this…lest I tear you into pieces and there be none to deliver” (Hell?)
I say God’s “apparent silence,” because I believe the Holy Spirit still tries to speak, but willful sinners who don’t repent have opened the door to familiar spirits who speak louder than Jesus’ still, small voice that knocks.
Now is the time to repent. Then will be too late.
Now is our chance to overcome and walk in peace, instead of a sweaty ministry which bears no fruit.
It still baffles me that more haven’t studied the entire New Testament verse by verse to find out for sure what it says about who goes to heaven. Most just believe what others tell them. Even seminary students just echo what they learned in seminary.
Whatever happened to the Bereans? I don’t expect anyone to just believe what I say. I want them to see for themselves, which is why I include large portions of texts in my article, so it can be clearly seen that I’m not taking these verses out of context.
Either the way is narrow, or it is wide, but it can’t be both. And Jesus said it’s narrow. So why is the ‘church’ believing it’s wide, when the New Testament clearly shows otherwise.
The Bible says in the last days people will be willfully ignorant. That, along with the huge role that evil spirits invisibly and stealthily play gives the grace changing teachers plenty of “itching ears” ready to hear support for their desire to do what they want to do that they know is wrong and still get to go to heaven.
The Bible says: “rebellion is as the sin of witchcraft.” The grace changing pastors are more like witches than pastors, because they teach false doctrine and then pray that the people accept what they say. And “don’t listen to Jeff, or read for yourself.”
Baruch: “Not only is DECEPTION of the church possible, it was PROPHESIED TO HAPPEN!” — Jesus said “IN THE LAST DAYS THE MAJORITY WILL BE DECEIVED, take heed that it doesn’t happen to you” — “FALSE TEACHERS are actually SPEAKING SPELLS with the words of their FALSE DOCTRINES!”
I totally believe pastor Howard Pittman’s testimony:
How Many Will Be in Heaven? How Many are Finding the WAY? Only 1 in 40 — 2.5%?!!
Howard Pittman was told this 2.5% figure at the gate of heaven 30 years ago (having died on the way to the hospital), before internet porn even existed, before the low-cut-top epidemic hit America, when more people were honest, and hate and anger wasn’t off the charts.
The figure may be less than 2.5% now.
What we have is a serious situation of which I believe false doctrine is the biggest reason, pushed by the grace changers, who have drunk the Kool-Aid themselves. They claim they have a better way, and that people should follow their new way of freedom, when they’re really teaching doctrines of demons, convincing many to leave the safety of God’s guardrails to become prodigal sons where no life reigns, only death. Look at what Romans 8 really says in my article, above.
Life in the Son means not living according to the flesh, but according to the Spirit, no matter what K-LOVE says over and over and over…. Just because the Devil has the airwaves doesn’t mean it’s so.
The reasons that the grace changing churches, the home meetings, and the Facebook conversations are dead is because God resists the proud but gives grace to the humble. God isn’t showing up, so the quality of the musicianship and the sound system then becomes the justification that the ‘worship’ service was good.
Jesus longs to show up, but we must worship in Spirit and in Truth.
How long will this keep going on: the grace changers acting like everything is okay, but the presence of God can’t even be felt anymore?
Most people don’t feel right, because they aren’t right, so it seems that the major theme in sermons and in songs on K-LOVE is that God loves us even if we don’t feel like He does — while the Bible says if we live holy we will feel right. We will have His peace and assurance now.
The spin is to convince people that if they feel condemned, it must be from the Devil, because “there is no condemnation…” — Romans 8:1a, with 81b and following — what I show above. The NIV and other Egyptian text based Bibles have taken out “who don’t walk according to the flesh but according to the Spirit.” The Egyptian scribes also took out other verses they didn’t like, such as the end of Mark, and other verses that clearly teach we’re supposed to be led by the Spirit to be real Christians — followers of Christ.
“Believe” also means obey. John 3:16, taught by itself is a deception. Jesus said we must overcome, over and over.
And when a group of us really decide to overcome and worship in Spirit and in Truth together, ‘ONE’ will happen, “that the world will know.”
In the meantime, those of you who teach a different gospel than the one actually taught in the Bible, you might want to reconsider, and shut up. Because Jesus will judge you according to what the Bible really says — not according to what you want it to say.
Woe to you who cause others to stumble.
And blessings to you who are determining to get right with those you’ve hurt and live a holy life, safely within the guardrails of Scripture, staying in step with the Holy Spirit, always having a clear conscience, which is essential for being in Christ, so our hearts won’t condemn us when we see Jesus, the Judge face to Face.
Lily's Mom
I think if you look at certain translations of the Bible, you can find proof that dogs have a soul. And as all animals are without original sin, as it was man that took from the tree of knowledge and not any other beast, then Animals are wholly without sin. Jesus came to save humans because we are sinful creatures, however animals have always been without sin – so their souls never needed to be saved. Jesus is my Lord and Savior. He came to this earth to save me. My dog has always been safe and will join me in God’s Kingdom with the Lord.
http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Genesis%201:30&version=WYC
Anonymous
All creation has been subject to frustration (depravity). Yes your dog will be in heaven not because it hasnt sinned but because God makes all things new.
Deb
Amen…I agree ….I think you have discerned scripture the way the Lord intended it.
Anonymous
I’m screwed.
Jeff Fenske
We need to do whatever we have to do in order to overcome. It’s up to us, because God’s grace is always sufficient to help us overcome:
“No temptation has taken you except what is common to man. God is faithful, who will not allow you to be tempted above what you are able, but will with the temptation also make the way of escape, that you may be able to endure it.” 1 Cor. 10:13
We should all be working on getting ‘ONE’ to happen — Jesus’ heart-cry for us in John 17. When Christians as a group are filled with God’s glory, having gotten right with anyone we’ve hurt and having stopped willful sin, it will be relatively easy.
Will you help me do what you can do so ‘ONE’ will happen? Please?
jeff
Jeff Fenske
Check this out, remembering “Draw near to God and He will draw near to YOU!”
[video] Asbury Revival, 1970: “‘Dr. Kinlaw, I am a liar. Now what do I do?’ … Three days later, she came to me radiant, and she said, ‘Dr. Kinlaw, I’m free!’”
Blake
You are confusing our salvation with our sanctification. Our salvation is completely based upon what Christ accomplished on the cross, and not anything we have done or will do. We are completely and totally forgiven. “…by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, 9 not of works, that no one would boast.” Eph 2:8-9. In our salvation, we are born again. Being born again, our “being” has been transformed inwardly. We are no longer “of the flesh” but also “of the Spirit.” We now walk according the Spirit for the Holy Spirit dwells within us.
However, just because we now have the Spirit, doesn’t mean we cannot deny the Spirit. Inwardly, we have been transformed. This is something only God can do and something He does. Outwardly, (our actions), are still controlled by us. We have the freedom to obey the Spirit (who speaks and directs us inwardly), or deny Him. Our sanctification is where we spend the rest of our life learning to live out in action (words and deeds) what God has done internally. Philippians 2:12-13 highlights this truth well, “12 So then, my beloved, even as you have always obeyed, not only in my presence, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling. 13 For it is God who works in you both to will and to work, for his good pleasure.” The command is for us to “work out” our salvation. The following verse says “God works in you”. God works within, and we work without.
We were not saved by our works, so how can we lose our salvation based upon our works?
Keeping Christ’s commandments is not necessary for salvation, rather, it is the evidence of salvation. Once we have been saved and the Holy Spirit enters within, we now obey Christ because it is our “being” inwardly. Obedience is who we are. For example, a dog barks because it is a dog. A sinner sins because he is a sinner. A sinner can do good things. However, this does not make the sinner a saint. When Christ transforms us, he transforms us into a saint. Once we are a saint, it is our nature to do God’s will and obey Him. However, a saint can still sin. This does not make the saint a sinner. Rather, it just makes them a bad saint.
You neglect to see this in the Scriptures you have listed. You neglect to see the power and work of God inwardly in the person as described by Christ. How else can a person be saved unless God Himself does the work? Who is greater than God?
We are saved “not of works, that no one would boast.” We do not bring about our own salvation. Rather, sanctification is about living in action what God has done in the heart. God has made us holy. This is true. Now, we must live holy lives. We will be rewarded accordingly, but no one that God has cleaned is to be considered unclean.
Jeff Fenske
Blake,
Sanctification is required for salvation. We must abide in Christ, which the scriptures in my essay totally show.
We’re not saved by works of the law. Now we are to be led by the Holy Spirit, which fulfills the law (Romans, Galatians, etc.). Now we have the Holy Spirit, Who gives us the grace/power to overcome and work out our salvation. And only those who overcome will not have their names removed from the Book of Life (Rev. 3:1-6).
The old covenant standard has been increased, not lowered. Jesus upped the ante in the sermon on the mount. ~”You have heard that it was said, ‘thou shalt not kill,’ but I say, anyone who hates….” “You have heard that it was said, ‘thou shalt not commit adultery,’ but I say, anyone who looks at a woman to lust after her in his heart….”
It’s up to us. God gives us the grace/power to overcome, but He won’t make us obey.
“Those who are led by the Spirit are the sons of God.”
“Those who are Christ’s have crucified their flesh.”
Romans 8:1,4,13,14:
There is therefore now no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus, who don’t walk according to the flesh, but according to the Spirit. ..that the ordinance of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit. …
For if you live after the flesh, you must die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the deeds of the body, you will live. For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, these are children of God.
How much clearer can it be? It’s hard to believe that you carefully read the texts I presented.
Most ‘Christians’ are biased by what they’ve been taught, and by what others ‘prayed’ that they would believe and accept. I put ‘prayed’ in quotes because when people ‘pray’ that others believe something that isn’t true, it’s a James-3 curse that religious spirits enforce. Many today are spirit-led instead of Spirit-led. They’re led by evil spirits who reinforce doctrines of demons that Luther and Calvin made popular, as once-saved-always-saved appeals to the flesh.
Most people are going by how they feel instead of by what the Bible really says. And probably in most cases, evil spirits drive these feelings that put us at odds with what really is clearly written. But “Christians can’t have a demon.” Oh yeah? — Can a Christian Have a Demon? Absolutely! Most Have Many! This is the only way to explain how such a different gospel can now be mainstream — now that pastors, parents and well meaning people pray (James-3 curse) that we believe something that isn’t even true.
It is hard to believe that the deception is so great today that most pastors are now teaching a different gospel than that taught by Jesus, Paul and the others, but once-saved, always saved is now so fully entrenched that a free society can no longer stand. We may now see in our lifetimes the collapse of the free society to where Satan’s global dictatorship takes complete charge.
..now that ‘Christians’ have left their first love, replacing the fear of God with:
“I’m okay; you’re okay.”
“Don’t worry, be happy.”
“We don’t have to be feel right to be right.”
“There is therefore now no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus,
who don’t walk according to the flesh, but according to the Spirit.”“The kingdom of heaven suffers violence, and the violent take it by force.” And “our warfare is not against flesh and blood.”
Evil spirits and doctrines of demons have changed the gospel into something other than what Jesus and the apostles taught, giving people false hope, as we now watch the hideous affects of this different gospel that is destroying our culture — when most ‘Christians’ no longer are salt and light.
..this love has been made perfect among us, that we may have boldness in the day of judgment, because as he is, even so are we in this world.
jeff
seamus morris
please remove me from your mailing list
Jeff Fenske
Seamus,
No one has requested this so far, so I had to look into it. As far as I can tell, I’m not allowed to subscribe or unsubscribe anyone. Apparently, http://subscribe.wordpress.com works to remove the email notifications for personal subscriptions.
jeff
Susan B.
I first received Christ in 1985. I read my Bible and prayed daily. Church attendance was never very good. Not sure exactly when it started to happen, but I began to backslide and took my eyes off the Lord. I spent several years away from the Lord and basically lived “worldly”. Around 2 years ago, I repented and have tried to abide through prayer, reading my Bible and staying in fellowship with other Christians. By your account, I feel like I’m now eternally damned. I’ve always understood that I can do nothing in the flesh but only what’s done in the Spirit will last. I never quit believing Jesus is the Truth, Life, and the Way, but I was sinning. In fact, I sin nearly everyday, in thought and/or deed. I repent daily. In your opinion am I damned?
Jeff Fenske
Susan,
Thanks for the comment. I’ve been thinking about the best way to respond. I’ll start with Paul, and then talk about my own life too.
Paul took these warning scriptures seriously. He ran his race to win, so he would achieve the eternal-life prize. He took “work out your salvation through fear and trembling” seriously.
Luther, on the other hand, removed all of the fear and ended up an extreme willful sinner, and almost certainly forfeited his birthright, because he chose to run with some statements in Paul’s introductions and ignore the Paul’s arguments in the later chapters of his letters.
Martin Luther: Sin Boldly — “No sin can separate us from Him, even if we were to kill or commit adultery thousands of times each day”
Luther embraced a doctrine of demons, to the point that he was willing to throw out entire books of the Bible to support his theory.
Martin Luther’s Subordinate Bible Books: Hebrews, James, Jude & Revelation
Most pastors, today, somewhat similarly have a canon within the Canon: their own personal favorite texts that they teach on, while they ignoring the texts that disagree with their we-don’t-have-to-be-holy gospel.
D. A. Carson: The Problem of the Canon Within the Canon — A subset of scriptures taught in exclusion of those that would result in true doctrine. “We badly need to listen to one another, especially when we least like what we hear.”
But if we had been taught the truth about who goes to heaven from little on, we probably wouldn’t be struggling with sin right now. We’d be ‘ONE’ (John 17). Which is my goal for us. I’m not just concerned with multitudes more going to heaven, than are currently, but Jesus wants us to be ‘ONE.’ “That the world will know,” and we will be so happy no matter what.
It’s no fun to struggle with sin and not be a consistent overcomer. There is guilt and there is shame, which is from the Holy Spirit, contrary to what we’re taught. Because Romans 8:1 actually says:
There is therefore now no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus, who don’t walk according to the flesh, but according to the Spirit.
If we feel condemnation, we’re in trouble. We shouldn’t brush it off as if it’s from the Devil, which many pastors say. And then these same pastors will say that Christians cannot have demons, when they just said that the feeling of condemnation cannot come from God, but comes from the Devil.
Can a Christian Have a Demon? Absolutely! Most Have Many!
When we stop willfully sinning, we shut the door to demons have a right to drive those sins in our lives. And this is when we can be free from sin and condemnation. And it’s not that hard to stop sinning when we totally shut the door, 100%. But if we willfully lust, for example, even just a little bit, then we open the door for these very real beings to drive lust:
[Lust “the poison that kills the soul” FREEDOM] My experience: How DEMONS DRIVE heterosexual and homosexual lust in ‘Christians’ — The bad news is that demons drive lust. The good news is that demons drive lust, because…
Many truly born-again ‘Christians’ have hurt people and have not gotten right with them — called them up and said they were sorry. And they’ll feel guilt, because the Holy Spirit wants them to make things right — so they can feel right and go to heaven! But most pastors aren’t teaching the importance of reconciliation, nor or they leading by example, and they are in deep trouble, God saying they will get a stricter judgment. I had a prophecy for a pastor in which God said the flames would be neck high if he didn’t repent.
God isn’t messing around. He means what He says. And pastors are only teaching half of God’s character, to their own demise. Paul in Romans 11:20b-22:
Don’t be conceited, but fear; for if God didn’t spare the natural branches, neither will he spare you. See then the goodness and severity of God. Toward those who fell, severity; but toward you, goodness, if you continue in his goodness; otherwise you also will be cut off.
When we take these scriptures seriously, then it only seems natural to get right with everyone and to keep those sin doors completely closed. If we open the sin doors again, and the demons flood in, we can repent, of course (1 John 1:9). But we can’t keep that door open even just a little bit, or we defile ourselves and we’ll never really be free — the place we need to be.
God gives us this safe place to live in, and if we willfully choose to sin, we have left security and we enter the danger zone. What if we would die in that state: in willful sin, not having fully repented, not abiding in Christ so that there is peace in our hearts? If we would see Jesus face to face, could we have confidence to enter heaven, having willfully obeyed?
I personally wouldn’t count on that. I personally take these scriptures seriously, and it helps me to stay free; though, it took me a long time to take these seriously enough to then consistently overcome. And I still don’t consider myself having yet arrived. I could drop my guard and willfully sin, and the demons would flood in, and I’d say to myself: “what have I done? That didn’t even really satisfy — and I jeopardized my salvation for that?!!”
I believe that. I think we should see sin as poison, and do everything we have to in order to overcome. And for many people that will require them getting right with those they’ve hurt — like this wonderful lady:
[video] Asbury Revival, 1970: “‘Dr. Kinlaw, I am a liar. Now what do I do?’ … Three days later, she came to me radiant, and she said, ‘Dr. Kinlaw, I’m free!’”
And when a group of us are right with each other and God, then God can show up in His glory, and we can have a permanent Asbury Revival, together — free!
Then it will be normal not to sin. But during these doldrum days, when false doctrine has opened and left the sin gate open so many never really get free, there are hardly any ‘churches’ in which even the pastors are free. So how can they teach us to be free when they aren’t. I have found that attending disobedient ‘churches’ can do more harm than good. Many won’t admit they were wrong to teach old covenant tithing, instead of being led by the Holy Spirit to decide how much to give. Because if the people were led by the Holy Spirit they would smell a rat and rightfully not give at all.
Pastors need to get right with the people, but until then, we have to find other ways to fellowship, so that we learn to overcome — regardless of what others think.
Then once ‘ONE’ happens — God’s glory fills His people so it’s obvious to the world that we are filled with Him — then many ‘Christians’ will reconsider all of these false doctrines that have kept them in bondage. And they’ll get free too!
ONE can happen — but it’s up to us — as we actually set as realistic goals: doing the Greatest Two Commandments together — as the body of Christ. No excuses.
FREEeeeeeeeeeee———-DOM!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Power to the peaceful — God gives grace to the humble.
Jeff : )
Susan B.
Thank you for your answer. I do take God and His “entire” Word seriously. I believe this is why after I came back to repentance, prayer, and Bible study on a daily basis, I didn’t really take anyone’s word that I was now “okay” again. I had to delve in for myself and pull the truth out for myself! Only God’s answer would do! This process took years! I was greatly convicted and in fear over what I was reading; that I had lost my salvation. I finally ended up believing that ( 1 John 1:9 ) I could be forgiven. As well as the examples of God calling Israel from their backsliding ( over, and over again ) and The Prodigal Son. Also the sinner of the Corinthians church was put out of their fellowship until he repented and was able to return. I do believe many churches today aren’t teaching the whole Bible. We need to ABIDE continually! I like the idea of all Christians being as ONE. God is the God of reconciliation…not only to Himself, but to those around us. ( The Ten Commandments give us this example….Love the Lord your God above all with everything you’ve got, and love your neighbor as yourself. ) When we wrong someone, we do need to apologize, make right where we can, and reconcile to that person. You have placed so much emphasis on this that I have to ask how you feel about those you’ve wronged several years ago. ( even the wrongs they don’t know about ex: something you’ve said behind their back etc…) What if they’re out of your life and you don’t know how to reach them anymore…moved away, etc…what if they’re now deceased? What if you do find them, but the issue you’re asking forgiveness for would possibly shatter their lives, such as adultery, etc…? Entire families might be broken apart! Wouldn’t it be better then to just take your pleas before God? I ask God’s forgiveness daily, and I also ask His forgiveness on those who sin against me no matter what it is. I believe He honors those sincere prayers. I really like how you explain by letting sin in, you let demons in. That makes sense to me and I’ll carry that with me as a deterrent. I do take my Christianity seriously and the example of the Ten Virgins was brought to my heart recently. We need to abide! I believe the sacrifice by Jesus on our behalf frees us from worry so that we may serve Him with a clear conscience. You see, if I concentrate on my sins all day, how am I ever going to be of any good for Him. My life is hidden in Him and I’m dying to self (daily). Now the life that (was) mine, is now His.This is a process and He’s guiding me to the likeness of His Son. Thanks again!
Jeff Fenske
Susan,
Getting right with one another was also a key for the Welsh revival:
The Welsh Revival of 1904-05 by J. Edwin Orr: A Countrywide Asbury-like REVIVAL! The 4 Points: #1 Confess any known sin, and put any wrong done to man right again. #2 Put away any doubtful habit. #3 Obey the Spirit promptly. #4 Confess your faith publicly.
There are probably a few instances where it would be wiser not to say anything. But that’s the Holy Spirit’s job to lead us into all truth, to help us know what to do. What does your conscience say? Is it fear, or is it the Lord saying not to? Are hearts must be clean, not just our heads. But I would think that when our hearts our clean our heads our free too.
Also, love compels us to get right with everyone. I think the rule of thumb would be to apologize unless you believe God doesn’t want to, or if you think it really would be more harmful than good.
“If therefore you are offering your gift at the altar, and there remember that your brother has anything against you, leave your gift there before the altar, and go your way. First be reconciled to your brother, and then come and offer your gift. (Mt. 5:23-24)
Then we can lift up holy hands and worship God in Spirit and in truth.
The lady in the Asbury Revival video who told Dr. Kinlaw she was a liar. She had to apologize to 34 people before she was free. But I imagine it got easier and easier as she went along. And God probably filled her with so much love as she achieved victory after victory!
“Pride goes before a fall.” So many will let pride and the fear of man keep them from just doing the right thing. And “God gives grace to the humble.” He will give you grace (the enablement and the power) to do the right thing — as we just do what we know we should do.
And then reconciliation can become a habit. If I ever hurt anyone, now, it now doesn’t take me long to apologize, once I realize what I’ve done. And usually it’s a positive experience. The key is to get clean, and then staying clean isn’t very hard.
Perhaps this would help:
My 1990 Key-to-Revival Prophecy: “There is might and there is power and there is glory, but it is being withheld until these relationships are made right, until we love our brother enough to…”
It seems that reconciliation is a really big deal to God, because He really does want us to become ‘ONE.’ And we can’t wait for the pastors to do it, and then lead us to. We can actually lead and encourage them to overcome too, once we have….
It’s no big deal to just apologize. Many of the people probably already know what you did.
I think there are some people who won’t apologize to me because they’re afraid of losing face. But God shows me things, and people have hunches. I probably already have a pretty good idea of what they’ve done, even though they tried to hide it. I will be so happy for them when they do the right thing. And hopefully, I’ve already forgiven them. And I would probably have a lot more respect for them when they just admit it, instead of acting like nothing is wrong and that everything will be okay anyway.
This is why we’re losing our country. Most ‘Christians’ I know still won’t publicly admit they were wrong to support George W. Bush for two terms; though, he did so many reverse-Christian things to US and others.
We can be part of the solution, the dream team. We can get clean and stay clean. And you mentioned the Prodigal Son. We have the assurance that God will run to us when we totally come back to Him, according to His terms. Check out this video:
[video – The MOST BEAUTIFUL SONG!] Benny Hester: “When God Ran” — God will RUN when we come back to Him!
Thanks, again for writing!
Jeff : )
Craig Shaw
Hi. Just a question. Please don’t flame me. I been looking a lot into both the KJV only and the arguments against it. Personally I prefer to use the KJV, but I do sometime struggle understanding it due to the old English. And do also sometimes worry that even if I think I understand that maybe I misunderstood a word which may have changed meaning. Though I do prefer to study from the KJV as while I am not against different versions (I dont want to be hasty in speaking against something that could be the word of God without being 100% sure), I prefer to use the KJV due to all the various changes I have come to know are missing. My question is this. Is there a modern version that is the same as the KJV? Or is there an older translation that is similiar but easier to understand to use as a comparison? I want to study from the KJV but want to keep a second version as a reference to make sure I am not misunderstanding or misinterpreting anything.
Jeff Fenske
Craig, no flames here. And I agree with you. I use the World English Bible (WEB) mostly for online work, as it’s also royalty free and Textus Receptus Greek text based — the reliable Greek text. And my Bible at home is a NKJV. Neither are quite as accurate as the KJV, but are close. I often check these against the KJV for reference.
The NIV is horrible, and this is apparently why. I include a number of related articles at the bottom of this one:
http://onecanhappen.com/2011/01/10/what-is-horribly-wrong-with-modern-bible-translations-like-the-niv-most-modern-versions-slavishly-depend-on-the-egyptian-and-vatican-corruptions-of-the-new-testament
The main thing for me is to stay away from the Westcott Hort Greek Text based translations, which are the versions that take out thousands of words, to the delight of the OSAS people, who like the gutted Romans 8:1 passage. The NKJV questions 8:1b in a footnote, though.
http://onecanhappen.com/2011/01/10/what-is-horribly-wrong-with-modern-bible-translations-like-the-niv-most-modern-versions-slavishly-depend-on-the-egyptian-and-vatican-corruptions-of-the-new-testament
A friend recommended this version, which I haven’t looked into enough yet, but it also sounds good. It’s also royalty free:
http://studybible.info/version/AKJV
http://www.angelfire.com/al4/allenkc/akjv
There are probably others. I think there is a KJV 2000, but I’m not familiar with it.
God bless!
jeff
pktrkt
I know what you mean, I worry the most when I think I understand it!
Marion
Jeff i hope u can help me with this question? my daughter is “seeking” and she has maaaaany questions! she was reading about how women was created to serve man and then some of the verses where only man was mentioned when discussing going to heaven and all related verses. women was never addressed! i understand that she will have these type of questions but she asked me bluntly where in the Bible does it say or state that woman will go to heaven? I explained to her that i think the word man didnt mean gender but rather God’s creation like the word human, but boy she isnt easilly convinced!
She said God had only regard for men and woman only to “please” men. I know there were woman very highly regarded in God’s eyes but the actual context part of going to heaven is only adressed to man! how do i explain that to her?
pkt rkt
Tell her that a woman gave birth to God —– can I please get my $6000 now?
Jeff Fenske
Marion,
WoW! I’ll think about this, and get back to you *soon*.
Very important. I would like to tackle this “women to please men” issue, which I suppose is largely based upon “wives submit to your husbands” and ~”women to not teach men in the church meetings” — Paul’s teachings.
I do have this video posted, which I really like, but this doesn’t go into what you’re asking enough, I’m thinking: http://onecanhappen.com/2011/04/07/video-adrian-rogers-on-men-and-women-celebrate-the-difference
You are right about the word ‘man’ *often* not meaning gender, as in Romans 8. KJV says ‘sons,’ but I use in this paper mostly the WEB, which is based on the same, excellent Greek text, but does change the gender at times to include women. So in this paper, instead of ‘sons,’ the WEB says ‘children.’
This shows how the different versions translate Romans 8:14. http://biblehub.com/romans/8-14.htm
Thanks for asking. I’ll respond soon. I would really like to share what I think is the balance.
Jeff
Jeff Fenske
Marion,
I really am thinking *a lot* about how much to say and how to say it. My plan is to write an entire article on this. I’ll post a link to it here.
Just wanted you to know that I’m committed to doing this.
Jeff Fenske
Please forgive me for taking so long. I really have been thinking about what to say, every day, praying…. I don’t know how to say it briefly, and I just need to do it, soon. I will.
Thanks for waiting, if you’re still out there.
I’m going to do this other heavy comment, right now.
jeff
Jeff Fenske
Marion,
I had a heavy dream this morning that perhaps was a warning for me to not wait anymore in answering these two difficult comment questions.
I answered this one first, and will get to yours really soon. I hope things are going okay. I’ll try to help.
It’s possible you’ll find something useful in here. I talk about a couple who really seemed to be God’s will for each other, a match made in heaven. They loved each other so much, and seemed to work together seamlessly, but then this happened. This is so heavy, but really interesting too:
Can a person influenced by antidepressants commit suicide and go to heaven?
I talk about how I can’t imagine continuing in the public ministry they were doing without finding a solution to this problem, first.
Jeff
Jeff Fenske
Marion,
So you know, I’m still thinking in how to answer completely enough without having to write a book. It does look like I’m still going to have to cover a lot of points, though.
Also, I’m sure that your daughter (and perhaps you too) are not the only ones perplexed by this subject. I’ll be writing this for them too.
Have you seen this? This scientifically proves how almost completely opposite and complementary men and women are. This is huge!
Scientists: WOMEN better at MULTI-TASKING, MEN better at CONCENTRATING on SINGLE Complex TASKS; Women have better connections between the LEFT & RIGHT sides of the brain • Men have better connections between the FRONT & BACK — COMPLEMENTARY PROVEN!
And this doesn’t even get into the emotional vs. objective differences, which are also very significant.
Men and women are equally important, but very different, unlike what the education system and the media are trying to push down our throats to keep us divided from each other and our Father in heaven.
It’s part of Satan’s plan to destroy America to bring in the one-world government.
I’m currently critiquing and transcribing some quotes from an excellent video teaching series that deals with some of your question.
jeff
mary
I couldnt read everything here as there is an awful lot. But what I did see was the ‘once saved always saved’ idea that christians have, and its worrying that they don’t see other areas of scripture where it clearly States that following God isn’t easy and once yo do believe thats when your suffering starts. Look at his deciples and apostles they weren’t saying ” thats it, Jesus died for me and im ok, they suffered and denied themselves. As Paul said “i die daily” he did this so christ could live through him. As must we. Because Jesus came as an example for us to follow. He denied all worldly things, as must we if we follow him. Its a narrow way because its a hard way, its not all happy clappy and “we can live how we like because Jesus died for me” that’s anonsult to all the suffering that he went through in his life. Jesus “those who endure to the end will be saved” we also have to endure suffering, we have to deny ourselves, take up our crosses and follow him. Deny the sins in our flesh our body is the shape of the cross, its on this we deny our sins as he did so we follow him. And like Paul we die daily! And we must do this till the end of our lives, everyday loving the lord our God with all our hearts mind soul and strength and our neighbour as yourself.Enduring till the end but Jesus said “have no fear because I have overcome the world!” And because he overcame all sin in his flesh he will help us overcome too. As long as we put our hand to it and love God, have faith, deny ourselves daily and follow Jesus. Mary
mary
For Marion, show your daughter this please, Genesis chapter 1 verses 26-29 in these verses it says God created man on his own image, in the image of God he created them. Male and female he created he them. So when it says about man getting into heaven it means men and women. We are all man. But we must live our lives right to get there. By following Jesus’ example in his life.
mary
Sorry about typing errors, I’m writing on my phone.
Dean Haskins
This, and the other articles on the website, wholly refute your churchian salvation of works that leads to the lake of fire. http://wayofthetabernacle.com/patience.htm
Jeff Fenske
Paul warned about works *of the law*, while saying to “work out your own salvation with fear and trembling,” making sure that we abide in Christ so when we see Jesus face to Face we’ll have faith to enter.
Paul took the fear of God seriously. He worked out his own salvation through fear and *trembling*, making sure he *ran his race* to win!:
“Herein I also practice *ALWAYS* having a CONSCIENCE VOID OF OFFENSE toward God and MEN” (Acts 24:16).
Can you say that?
“Without holiness no one will see the Lord.” (Hebrews 12)
musicproducer59
You need to dig more deeply than your English translation of men. And, there’s a reason you couldn’t answer my question about the difference between the righteous and the holy in Rev. 22:11. You don’t know the difference, and that lack of spiritual understanding is apparent in all that you write. You have a form of godliness, but deny the power therein, for you trust in yourself for righteousness (and Yah sees your works as filthy rags).
Again, the articles on the website I posted wholly refute your false doctrines, and your challenge has been won by the Holy Spirit, who you fully deny and negate as the source of righteousness in Yah’s children. You are to be ignored and shunned as any kind of “teacher,” as you peddle nothing but the false doctrines of men, and reject the actual work of the Holy Spirit in Yah’s children. That is why you don’t understand the scriptures, and end up bastardizing and perverting them.
Jeff Fenske
“Follow peace with all men, and holiness, without which no man shall see the Lord: Looking diligently lest any man fail of the grace of God….” – Heb. 12:14-15